Watch the full conversation here: https://youtube.com/live/OVl9FGe8fno?feature=shareChris, Marcelina, and Max join Katie to discuss the historic UAW strike. ...
First off, you’ll notice people calling this a “betrayal”, because they expected more from a Democrat, this and worse would be typical and expected for a Republican. Second of all, I didn’t read the law but read Newsom’s note about it and kinda agree. Newsom is not motivated by trans hate lol.
Ohhh okay, so the dems can actually be heinous and throw trans folks under the bus but it needs to be cold and calculated and maybe pretend to be sad about it. Gotcha. As long as the calculus lines up, right? All your whinging about trans people getting better treatment under dems was complete bullshit, i guess. Do you actually care? are you comfortable and insulated and don’t actually feel the impact of dem Policy? The fact that this act doesn’t disgust you speaks volumes.
‘Capitulating to the right is good actually! Only the leftists are giving up when they refuse to play by the rules set by the house! The dems are allowed, however, to do anything and everything that they want because they aren’t fascists! and we can’t criticize them because that’s the same thing as being fascist!’
When I was young and dumb, I worked on a bunch of political campaigns (gubernatorial, presidential, congressional). The thing that struck me was the number of people who didn’t give a shit about the democratic party because their lives weren’t improved by it at all, and these were not politically illiterate people. They were fully able to point to issues in their communities or in their state, what have you, that would have changed things for the better. Ask me how the political careers of those democrats went and what harm they prevented.
Math doesn’t give a shit about opinions, voting third party in our system is a losing proposition. Use it for signalling in safe districts.
Ooohh, now math doesn’t give a shit. Earlier you were giving people grief for saying their individual votes didn’t matter. So we can break out the math and realize that our individual votes don’t matter in most cases.
Voting third party is the most bare minimum basic thing people can do. If you aren’t seeing the tangible and meaningful impact that effective political organizing can achieve, then it is on you to rectify that if you truly have ideals which align with anarcho-communism. If you are saying that voting for dems is a worthwhile strategy because they are ineffectual, you can communicate that point without going whole hog defending the dems. I disagree, but it’s a more defensible position. Also, quick aside, why do you think that without meaningful socialist organizing that the leftists would take power after ineffectual dem governance? its just as likely, if not more, that the rightwing with false populism would rise to replace the dems, especially if what little organized left was shown to be in bed with the dems.
Nah, I just don’t think any law that purports to be pro-trans necessarily is a good idea. Sometimes laws can be written poorly and not take into consideration how fascists could use it to hurt people. Have you read the law? Newsom’s response? Can you tell describe to me how it helps and how it definitely won’t backfire?
You’re the newsom/dem supporter; you tell me. How does vetoing a bill that was largely supported by its constituency protect trans kids? Is even this limited bourgeois democracy too much for you? Seems authoritarian to me. Also, how does this track with this statement at the end here.
Socialist organizing is pro-state. I’ve mentioned repeatedly that I think organizing is pretty much the most important way to change the future, I just don’ t think doing so in a pro-state organization will lead to the best outcome. States don’t give up power, I’m not interested in getting my guys into power, that’s the mistake of history. Nobody deserves power.
‘Socialist organizing is pro-state, but organizing is important.’ wtf? How can you even marginally support the dems if this is your ideology? So you don’t think people should organize around socialist concepts? what kind of anarcho-communist are you? because even if you decry all extant orgs as “statist” presumably you are organizing (if you actually are) with leftists… every socialists/communists/anarchists who I have organized with wouldn’t bristle at being called socialist in a casual context. You clearly don’t understand why leftists engage in electoralism, especially when there isn’t a good chance of them winning. Do you think that voting for 3rd parties in the presidential is to get elected? If it happens that’s great (it won’t), but it is primarily to spread your political message, the majority of the work of any well-meaning left org is not electoral, it is on the ground and in the community. I don’t understand how this specific action is pro-state outside of some of the participants not being anarchists. Leftists should support leftist political projects and parties and not the political parties of empire. I don’t understand why this is so fucking hard to understand.
Yes, because math matters, individual votes matter that’s why billions are spent to influence individuals by targeting groups. That’s why I’m bothering to argue with you guys, because I see y’all have empathy you’re just misled into thinking Xi and Putin (two of the richest most powerful men the world has ever seen) actually are interested in your well being. There are many MAGA people in your same situation that think Trump is interested in their well being. They’ve been told their enemy is minorities, you’ve been told your enemy is everyone not wanting to destroy America at any cost and not all about sucking Xi dick.
And there we have it. Like clockwork, the chauvinism that plagues the western left rears its rotting head. Absolutely incapable of looking at things from another perspective, especially when it comes to foreign policy. Ignoring the homophobic/problematic aspects of this tirade, why do you believe that you can completely disregard history? because the american leftist project is going to supercede anything those damn others do? I don’t like Putin, you’d find a significant portion (if not majority of the people on this site) don’t, but I actually pay attention to history and don’t let myself be dragged around by the nose by the US state department. Most of my attention is in my immediate surroundings and community. I am, in fact, not motivated by fucking xi or putin you goddamn weirdo, I’m motivated by the fucking horror show that is the USA. I’m motivated by my friends who were murdered by the state. I’m motivated by the fact that we have fucking full blown nazi acceptance in the west (yes, by the dems). Again, if you want to vote for dems, I don’t fucking care, but don’t expect roses and applause when you get in people’s face about bullshit while the world is crumbling around them.
You don’t think that posting on a random forum is casual? Antagonistic sure, but also definitely casual. I use socialist in person all the time in order to get around sectarian bullshit in contexts that are much more formal than an online forum lmao.
You blunder into a room (full of minorities) to proselytize that everyone must vote for dems to support trans people and then dismiss a markedly anti-democratic and anti-trans action, deferring entirely to the singular authority of a man who you claim to be a detractor of. You use your ‘anarchist creds’ to attack the left with uncritical, ahistorical analysis, but won’t criticize the establishment when there are quantifiable actions to criticize. You attack left orgs with basically zero institutional power for being pro-state whilst defending the literal US government. You resort to homophobic attacks to assume I am a useful idiot for foreign governments and perceived boogeyman and that I am no different from a Trump supporter. You don’t even bother mentioning how dem support for literal nazis factors into your support. You don’t respond to others who make compelling arguments against your tired points. Why the hell should I respond to you with anything other than dismissal?
Votes are earned.
Ohhh okay, so the dems can actually be heinous and throw trans folks under the bus but it needs to be cold and calculated and maybe pretend to be sad about it. Gotcha. As long as the calculus lines up, right? All your whinging about trans people getting better treatment under dems was complete bullshit, i guess. Do you actually care? are you comfortable and insulated and don’t actually feel the impact of dem Policy? The fact that this act doesn’t disgust you speaks volumes. ‘Capitulating to the right is good actually! Only the leftists are giving up when they refuse to play by the rules set by the house! The dems are allowed, however, to do anything and everything that they want because they aren’t fascists! and we can’t criticize them because that’s the same thing as being fascist!’
When I was young and dumb, I worked on a bunch of political campaigns (gubernatorial, presidential, congressional). The thing that struck me was the number of people who didn’t give a shit about the democratic party because their lives weren’t improved by it at all, and these were not politically illiterate people. They were fully able to point to issues in their communities or in their state, what have you, that would have changed things for the better. Ask me how the political careers of those democrats went and what harm they prevented.
Ooohh, now math doesn’t give a shit. Earlier you were giving people grief for saying their individual votes didn’t matter. So we can break out the math and realize that our individual votes don’t matter in most cases.
Voting third party is the most bare minimum basic thing people can do. If you aren’t seeing the tangible and meaningful impact that effective political organizing can achieve, then it is on you to rectify that if you truly have ideals which align with anarcho-communism. If you are saying that voting for dems is a worthwhile strategy because they are ineffectual, you can communicate that point without going whole hog defending the dems. I disagree, but it’s a more defensible position. Also, quick aside, why do you think that without meaningful socialist organizing that the leftists would take power after ineffectual dem governance? its just as likely, if not more, that the rightwing with false populism would rise to replace the dems, especially if what little organized left was shown to be in bed with the dems.
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You’re the newsom/dem supporter; you tell me. How does vetoing a bill that was largely supported by its constituency protect trans kids? Is even this limited bourgeois democracy too much for you? Seems authoritarian to me. Also, how does this track with this statement at the end here.
‘Socialist organizing is pro-state, but organizing is important.’ wtf? How can you even marginally support the dems if this is your ideology? So you don’t think people should organize around socialist concepts? what kind of anarcho-communist are you? because even if you decry all extant orgs as “statist” presumably you are organizing (if you actually are) with leftists… every socialists/communists/anarchists who I have organized with wouldn’t bristle at being called socialist in a casual context. You clearly don’t understand why leftists engage in electoralism, especially when there isn’t a good chance of them winning. Do you think that voting for 3rd parties in the presidential is to get elected? If it happens that’s great (it won’t), but it is primarily to spread your political message, the majority of the work of any well-meaning left org is not electoral, it is on the ground and in the community. I don’t understand how this specific action is pro-state outside of some of the participants not being anarchists. Leftists should support leftist political projects and parties and not the political parties of empire. I don’t understand why this is so fucking hard to understand.
And there we have it. Like clockwork, the chauvinism that plagues the western left rears its rotting head. Absolutely incapable of looking at things from another perspective, especially when it comes to foreign policy. Ignoring the homophobic/problematic aspects of this tirade, why do you believe that you can completely disregard history? because the american leftist project is going to supercede anything those damn others do? I don’t like Putin, you’d find a significant portion (if not majority of the people on this site) don’t, but I actually pay attention to history and don’t let myself be dragged around by the nose by the US state department. Most of my attention is in my immediate surroundings and community. I am, in fact, not motivated by fucking xi or putin you goddamn weirdo, I’m motivated by the fucking horror show that is the USA. I’m motivated by my friends who were murdered by the state. I’m motivated by the fact that we have fucking full blown nazi acceptance in the west (yes, by the dems). Again, if you want to vote for dems, I don’t fucking care, but don’t expect roses and applause when you get in people’s face about bullshit while the world is crumbling around them.
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You don’t think that posting on a random forum is casual? Antagonistic sure, but also definitely casual. I use socialist in person all the time in order to get around sectarian bullshit in contexts that are much more formal than an online forum lmao.
You blunder into a room (full of minorities) to proselytize that everyone must vote for dems to support trans people and then dismiss a markedly anti-democratic and anti-trans action, deferring entirely to the singular authority of a man who you claim to be a detractor of. You use your ‘anarchist creds’ to attack the left with uncritical, ahistorical analysis, but won’t criticize the establishment when there are quantifiable actions to criticize. You attack left orgs with basically zero institutional power for being pro-state whilst defending the literal US government. You resort to homophobic attacks to assume I am a useful idiot for foreign governments and perceived boogeyman and that I am no different from a Trump supporter. You don’t even bother mentioning how dem support for literal nazis factors into your support. You don’t respond to others who make compelling arguments against your tired points. Why the hell should I respond to you with anything other than dismissal?
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