I guess everyone else learned the playbook and started beating them at it

WOAH what a thing to come out of one’s mouth. Like…abusers always have mountains of justifications but something like this…it seems like it’s gotta cut through all the delusion…that’s not a thing a good person can feel, let alone say! Like…realizing you feel that way about someone should be a huge wakeup call that you’re a monster and need to do some serious work on yourself. Saying it out loud…wowee

This either is a mediocre joke, and not true…or it is true but their idea of “high net worth” is owning a small town hardware store lol

This is a good post! 🎉

When you know you know sometimes! Me and my wife were a bit like this.

Cooking is always welcome.

I haven’t seen it! What makes it a Christmas movie?

I like the theory that the fellowship of the ring is a Christmas movie because if you read the books, they use a Gregorian calendar and if you add up travel time etc, apparently you can prove that the fellowship left Rivendell on December 25!

I hope this is a nice conversation and you’re not frustrated; it’s nice for me!

inside

I don’t disagree it shouldn’t be an echo chamber; I’m glad you’re here (not that I have or should have any say in the use of the space!). Definitely not “inside” though. When I say “inside” I mean within a democratic centralist organization with some kind of political discipline. Organizations I’ve been part of would, from time to time, task members with researching and creating a report on AES countries, and then presenting their report internally to help develop well-considered positions on them. That’s the level of “internal” that I mean! Like…among people who trust each other, and only those people.

strategic criticism

If you mean that “strategic criticism” winds up just being “no criticism” I think that may be a fair critique of a lot of ML orgs.

Theory

Obviously the importance of theory is something people disagree about heatedly but to me, resistance to imperialism in the imperialist countries is so minimal that I’m happy to see a wide variety of tactics and let what happens happen. I got my theories but I ain’t gonna go out of my way to criticize someone else’s (hell, I was general Secretary of an IWW branch for several years…Marxist friends joke thay of course the anarchists made the Marxist be the organized one)

authoritarianism

When it comes to the word authoritarianism, I think a lot of Marxists have the same knee-jerk traction, which is to turn to Engels’ On Authority. Not for no reason, I think he makes a good point:

But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists.

So am I authoritarian? I mean I guess so, in that I believe in revolution. I believe “authoritarian means” may be appropriate. I don’t think any MLs see authoritarian means as a desirable feature in and of themselves. I think every ML wants to see them discarded as soon as they are no longer necessary. I think reasonable people can disagree about what that looks like, obviously…but that’s a difference of degree, not of kind, right? At least I would see it that way.

Big agree that intellectual dishonesty is bad. We should all think and speak and work as clearly as we can. Insofar as MLs (or anyone else for that matter) think unscientifically (worshiping books, class reductionism, etc), that’s bad!

I think some people can hold China accountable; Chinese people! When I say “we can’t hold them accountable” I mean “the internet.” (Of course I think people in the CPC have the most power and greatest obligation to hold the government accountable, but I understand skepticism about that, obviously. I don’t think that skepticism is merely a result of western propaganda or something. I worry about that too; they clearly don’t do a stellar job lol).

propaganda

You said your categories but not what you meant by them, just that they are important factors for you. So having a target audience makes something more likely to be propaganda, as does intention to spread a political message, as does the actual effectiveness of reaching people? That’s all fine; I don’t think these really help us come to agreement on what is or isn’t propaganda. Like…it looks to me like your messages in this thread have a target audience (tankies and/or potential tankies), they intend to carry a political message (comparing china and the us like this let’s China off the hook for its own evils)…maybe they don’t reach many people (maybe even just one?). But in the scheme of things I don’t think that factor particularly weighs in favor of anything on Lemmy being propaganda lol; way too puny for reaching any substantial number of people (And fwiw I would say the same thing about my own messages).

no!! It takes place around the Salzburg festival which is in…July I think?

I don’t think tankies think what you think tankies think. Maybe I’m wrong, but my impression is that when Marxist Leninists get together, criticism of “AES” countries is a perfectly fine topic of conversation “inside” the group, but when it’s done “outside” it serves the interest of the US/capital/imperialism. And I think there’s something to that; it does! A little full of yourself to think it could matter more than looking reasonable to outsiders or educating your insiders…but it’s not totally crazy. I don’t know, there is plenty though, like look at bad empanada (I think he’d be considered a tankie, right?). Guys done quite a bit on the Uyghurs.

I say all this as a Marxist Leninist (I assume I’m a “tankie” to people who use the word “tankie” lol).

Of course, I’d also say it’s a bit silly to think one could “hold [China] accountable” by the opposite means.

We disagree about what propaganda means, I guess. I don’t think “doing anti-China propaganda” means you hate China or something, I think it just means you’re conveying a political message that runs counter to their political message. I don’t understand the distinction between political messaging that is or isn’t propaganda?

I mean, I do understand that context; it is a propaganda piece portraying China as comparatively better than the US.

China is comparatively better than the U.S.

Making propaganda to that effect is good.

Everything is propaganda. You’re doing anti-China propaganda; I’m doing pro-China propaganda. with a veneer of nuance or whatever but my words have political meaning and so do yours…

I’ve never understood how any expression of political thought could not be propaganda… or that there’s an especially good/principled way to separate what you and me are doing from whatever you mean by propaganda…if it’s a government paying for it I really don’t think OP qualifies…or else the PRC should get its fuckin money back lol

Naw it’s not one sided, you just didn’t hear about the guy who got banned for accusing 4 people of being CIA agents.

The Sound of Music is not a Christmas movie.

My wife and her family and a whole bunch of Canadians all think it is and I am so flummoxed by it.

Who said atrocities are justifiable? Didn’t I just agree with you it was bad?

You’re the one that brought up Hong Kong as a “this was bad therefore it’s totally ridiculous to say anything positive about China.” I agree with the first part, but not the second nor the connection.

Maybe it’s not a majority, I don’t know, but at least some of the protesters were wishing to stay a UK colony; the Union Jack was much in evidence (which is pretty wild really). Or were those CPC provocateurs or something? If you tell me that was a vocal and ridiculous minority, that’s fine, I wasn’t there, I’ll believe you.

Look man, I’m happy people were brave and cool and protested for what they believed in, even if it’s not what I believe in, and it’s bad Chinese cops/authorities/whatever hurt them for it. I don’t know why that would mean I should think that saying good things about China is wrong. I also think the surveillance and mistreatment of the Uyghurs is bad…like way worse than what happened in Hong Kong. There are also lots of good things to say about China.

Nope that’s bad. Cops hurting protesters is bad even when the protesters are wrong.

Less bad than the wrong protesters getting their way and Hong Kong staying a colony of the UK…but still bad, for sure.

I’m a tax lawyer. I’m gonna be very busy fixing the messes people make using AI-assisted do-it-yourself tax planning lol. And by fixing I mean telling them to beg for penalties to be forgiven lol

Should not be surprised you’re a rad one, violet08!

I think another bit of context is that it was used as sort of Palestinian flag stand-in emoji when there wasn’t a Palestinian flag emoji

Nebula, means tv, and dropout =/ none will be the next YouTube but it’s nice to have options I guess

Is your friend working in the same area/industry as you? if so he will have a better feel for whether it’s “normal” than anyone here! That said, if you would feel safer at home than in the shelter and you can work from home effectively, then I think you should just work from home, and if they fire you, they fire you. If you gotta be there to do your job right I understand why they’d want you there, but you should think about whether it’s worth it to you!

Yeah, I can see that. As a principle, I agree with it, but I’ll put it behind (or maybe on-par with) the principle of identify and embarass fascists at every opportunity.

I see your point, though I don’t think there are many people who would see this and think “oh wow, he did a nazi salute? Oh…he didn’t? Well now I don’t trust the people saying he’s a fascist.” If a person can’t see his actions and words from what they are I don’t think we’re winning them over anyway.