Nice to meet a fellow volunteer on here. Of course, I also volunteer for the people. It is undeniably true that part of our responsibility is also the protection of private capital, though. That’s all I was really making a point about.

So we agree that this is a matter of degree rather than kind. As for the degree of difference, I fail to see much of one between the non-combatant service member and, say, the average US citizen who pays no mind to how their lifestyle and choices impact the world.

When you speak of the US military, you are speaking of an institution. It is an institution that you and I likely share similar grievances about. The difference is that I don’t attribute moral condemnation on every person who just so happens to be in the military. Likewise with every person who just so happens to work for Amazon, Google, Walmart, etc. The cook serving on a military base is about as responsible for an atrocity that occurs in the middle east as you are responsible for whatever negative outcomes are associated with the way you earn and spend your money.

Are you trying to ask what would be the good outcome of a massive labor strike in the US healthcare industry? Quite a lot of good could come from that. But, yes, profiting off the illness of children and sending their families into financial ruin is, once the scale is put into play, in my opinion, about as morally problematic as dropping bombs on children.

I get the impression you’re once again trying to excuse yourself of moral blame by saying the producers of animal products are significantly worse than the consumers. Much of the labor in animal “processing” facilities in the US comes from undocumented immigrants. Much of foreign meat comes from impoverished laborers or even slaves. Consumers of such products are directly funding those atrocities. And, yes, that also makes voters responsible for the atrocities that are perpetuated by their democratically elected governments.

And no, I don’t believe you have a moral right to be a terrorist.

I do think the perception matters in these instances. Someone who is killing in combat may have the perception of protecting freedom and democracy, but they are still pulling the trigger. A mail clerk, by contrast, is just sorting mail. A nurse is just treating a patient. The big-picture contributions may never occur to the individual, be it aiding an unjust military operation or an unjust private industry.

It’s a testament to the success of the propaganda surrounding public schools that you have conflated the institution of public education with education simpliciter. Education needn’t occur in an authoritarian classroom. As for the difference between whims and instructions, they’re effectively the same. Teachers set the classroom rules. We have children requesting to use the restroom, even being denied such a “privilege.” Who are you allowed to talk to and when? The teacher decides. Who can you sit next to? The teacher decides. Want to associate with someone in a different grade? Not permitted. Hungry? You can eat at the appointed time and no other. Etc. We somehow have accepted that school children ought to be treated like prisoners rather than free members of our society.

Consumption of products is the furthest one can be from participation in such things in many cases, or not far off.

Completely disagree. There’s an important caveat: Necessary consumption of products is the furthest one can be from participation. Most of the consumption done in the western world is not necessary.

Honestly ridiculous how you try to equate these things.

That’s okay. I don’t necessarily expect someone to condemn themselves.

In the sense that any task done in the military is contributing to a military goal, sure. I’ll remind the Goodwill employee that they’re contributing to military goals the next time I’m shopping there. (Whether you’re aware of it or not, Goodwill runs a lot of the logistics operations for at least RTC Great Lakes.) By that same logic, however, pretty much everyone in capitalist societies are also contributing to the “subjugation of non-white people.” There are measures that can be taken to reduce one’s problematic footprints, though. I just find that most people prefer to cast stones at others instead.

Firefighters are compelled to protect the private property of the capitalist class. I’m failing to see how the military is somehow directly responsible for the person I was originally responding to living under a capitalist system whereas they are not. Mind you, non-capitalist communities have firefighting and even militaries. Neither occupation is inherently capitalistic.

Regarding the healthcare industry in the US, it’s a profit-seeking venture. Anyone who participates in it voluntarily (e.g., doing software engineering for healthcare companies) is directly involved in one of America’s most backwards sectors of the economy. It’s a system where people are financially ruined when they’re the most vulnerable or even denied treatment for the purpose of enriching the healthcare sector’s capitalist class.

Why would I have to attack the meat producers first? Few meat producers are producing meat for the sake of producing meat. They produce meat because there’s a demand for it. It’s simple really: no one wants meat, no one produces meat. If you mean to say that most people lack the moral fiber to make ethical decisions when there’s an unethical choice they enjoy, then I agree. We collectively suck when it comes to being responsible individuals. Likewise with products produced using child labor and such. In some instances, all someone can afford is unethically produced products. Most people don’t even bother to put in the effort, though. Sacrifices are hard, and no one wants to make them. It’s an unfortunate reality.

For the average person in either role, both are just a job. You just happen to prefer one to another, personally. Further, public education is one of the most fascist institutions in democratic countries. Unless, of course, you somehow think it isn’t fascist for the state to decide the curriculum that every child is forced to learn, segregate children based on age, and coerce them into obeying the whims of whatever state employee happens to be their teacher.

I hate to break it to you, but your consumption of unethical products is also direct participation in the unethical production of said products.

And what of the firefighters and software engineers (and healthcare professionals) who just so happen to be doing those things in the military? You doing them in the civilian sector is somehow a morally superior choice? You as a firefighter are quite literally in the business of protecting the property of capitalists. You are just as much a protector of capitalism and the capitalist class as any person in the military. I’m not going to assume you’re an American, but needless to say your involvement in the healthcare industry is arguably just as problematic as military service if you are.

That doesn’t even get into your consumption habits. Do you consume animals products? How about products that are constructed with exploited labor, even slaves? Child labor? How about the products you consume that are irresponsibly produced from an environmental perspective?

But, hey, I’m glad you’re able to live with the choices you’ve made. We all must. It’s just a shame that you’ve deluded yourself into thinking you’re somehow more innocent than others based on those same flawed choices.

Which makes you also as guilty as the cook. Unless, of course, you live off the grid, homestead, and are entirely self-sufficient.

Entirely depends on the local area. I have two Costcos in my area. I also have several farmers’ markets, a co-op, and several grocers that sell fair trade and local products.

If one lives near a Costco, then there are almost certainly more ethical options in the same area.

I don’t even think that’s true in most cases.

Just wanted to make sure since people in this thread seem to be taking a holier-than-thou stance. As above:

Would it be okay, then, for me to rob, torture, and kill your family if it was the only way for me to get higher education (i.e. something that is not necessary to live)? What about the families these monsters kill that won’t be able to receive higher education on account of being dead or kidnapped?

If we’re talking about more than just service members who directly engage in combat and are including non-combat roles (cook, mail clerk), then the answer has to be yes.

And what about roles outside of the military? When was the last time you contributed to slavery or child exploitation with your purchases? How about your employer?

Yeah not sure how Costco is supposed to be a good choice.

Yeah it can be a bit annoying at times. I started out using Debian-based distros before systemd implementation, so Devuan with sysvinit just works for me. I’m not the sort of user who needs the latest updates on anything, so it’s mostly fine. I considered checking out Slackware since it also uses sysvinit, but it’s in a similar boat with updates and, frankly, I don’t want to deal with its package manager lol.

A pastor isn’t supposed to be. AI is often presumed to be by many, however.

I doubt Devuan will stop basing their distro on Debian. Or at least I hope they don’t. I specifically use Devuan because it’s basically just OG Debian.

As a matter of fact, yes.

We subsidize their military but can’t pay for our own? Interesting. But also you just come off as obsessive and, well, you know.