There’s a ton of information coming out from a bunch of different sources and it’s difficult to keep track of who’s said what and who has evidence of what. This thread is to keep track of who’s making what claims, who has what evidence, and discussion surrounding those.
For top-level comments, please separate into two categories:
Evidence (videos, facts, circumstantial evidence, etc.) that we can validate, invalidate, or provide supporting sources for
Claims (IDF, Hamas, Western media, etc.) that we can prove or disprove using current evidence
=== 2023-10-19 ===
It’s established fact that Israel was operating aircraft near the hospital, that Israel was striking targets near the hospital, that Israel had indicated that they would strike the hospital, that Israel had striked the hospital in the past, and that Israel had targeted multiple hospital staff in the days leading up to the strike.
It’s currently up to debate, but many indications suggest that Israel’s message has changed multiple times. The initial claim was that the attack was on Hamas operatives within the hospital. The claim afterward was that this was a Hamas misfire (using demonstrably falsified audio evidence).
The videos show that a single large explosion triggered whatever happened, not a sequence of smaller explosions or secondary detonations. The video circulating of a Hamas rocket “misfire” is more indicative of a MANPADS launch given multiple comparable flight paths from other MANPADS. It’s a clear usage of a multi-pulse rocket motor, something Hamas does not have domestic capability for but does have access to through Iranian MANPADS. An Iranian Misagh-2 fires a missile with less than 2kg of explosives and less than 20kg of total weight.
At this stage, my most likely conclusion is that the damage was the result of an airburst bomb.
https://nitter.net/Ted55643099/status/1714538028604019116#m
Extended video shows more ground strkes while the hospital burns.
IDF were clearly conducting strikes in the area.
Rewatching the video, I’m fairly convinced it’s the same munition used for most of the ground strikes. The hospital seemed to catch aflame afterwards (lending credence to the theory that the cars had gasoline which ignited) but the initial flash is pretty unmistakable.
If anyone’s feeling up to it, I’m fairly sure you could compare the relative exposures in the explosions. You’d have to correct for distance, distortion, etc. but usually live cameras don’t autocorrect exposure or fps so you have a pretty good baseline reading.
Nah you can’t, they’ll be bright enough to saturate the sensor.
At the point of impact, not at a distance away from it. Light is a function of distance from the origin… Right?
Yes, it is, but until the fireball is smaller than a pixel, you will see a reduction in the number of pixels illuminated, and then a reduction in exposure. And I’d wager that for a sizeable bomb it will take a while for that reduction in exposure to mean you stop clipping the sensor, especially at night with the ISO dialed up.
You can also see smoke plumes in the background near the hospital before the hospital is struck, and more of them start rising from the continued strikes.
The prior detonation at 0:16 seems to be of the same munition as that used on the hospital at 0:19. Can anyone confirm?
Depends on sounds imo
Episcopal Church in Jerusalem
https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1714651877562884390?t=OcSiZaWzVSrgwDRP3ZTyDA&s=19
The Episcopal Church in Jerusalem has announced that it received 3 phone warnings from Israel that they would strike the Baptist Hospital before they did it.
This has also been reported by French magazine LeMonde (paywall)
Nonpaywall link: https://archive.ph/yrnJ4
Thanks.
Does the article actually say that? I read through it and they said that the hospital had been bombed before on the 14th, and that those constituted as a warning.
Unless they’re different warning calls. This definitely says that the Israeli army called the hospital director saying the previous hits were warnings and to evacuate it before they hit it again.
The Al Ahli Arab Hospital had already been damaged by an Israeli bombing on October 14; four staff members were wounded, reported Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby on behalf of the Anglican Church, to which the Episcopalian Church of Jerusalem is attached. The next day, the Israeli army had called the hospital’s director to tell him that these two shots were warnings to evacuate, local Ministry of Health undersecretary Yousef Abu Al-Rish reported at a press conference on Tuesday evening, surrounded by the bodies of victims. In 11 days, 16 health workers have been killed in the course of their work in the Gaza Strip, according to the World Health Organization. Four hospitals are out of service.
Alex Thomson - Channel 4 News (UK)
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/1714670858914894046?t=ZCWKABr67eeeYyp9zuiA5Q&s=19
Several experts confirm Hamas’ view to @Channel4News that the audio tape of “Hamas” operatives talking about the missile malfunction is a fake . They say the tone, syntax, accent and idiom are absurd.
Israel’s own conflicting claims on the origin what hit the hospital, from Alex Thompson (Channel 4 News) :
Israel’s presentation has a Rear Admiral and the tape saying the malfunctioning missile fired from cemetery next to hospital. That doesn’t match video of the event.
Israel’s info graphic has the firing site 5kms SW of the hospital - it cannot be there and the next door cemetery , can it?
These facts were presented simultaneously by the same Israeli Rear Admiral. Saying one thing (cemetery) and holding a infographic board that shows the other (5km).
Claim by Hananya Naftali (Digital Aide of Netanyahu, Israeli influencer):
Israel struck the hospital as it was being used as a Hamas base.
Follow-up claim by the same guy:
Actually he was just repeating a Reuters story (which doesn’t claim that) and assumed. It was actually Hamas.
Source: Al Jazeera & the guy’s own Twitter account.
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Thanks! I think it’s fine leaving them in a single comment.
The main thing disproving Israel’s claim is that Hamas is clearly firing rockets away from the hospital.
I agree that this is definitely turning attention away from the daily bombings (and the convoy bombings, and the school bombings…) But at this point I’m just trying to figure out what actually happened.
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I just keep repeating ‘this was the 5th hospital struck so far’, and pretty much stop there. The source was (perhaps inadvertently) the NYT showing a graphic map of Gaza with approx locations of Israeli attacks, and a list of targets struck by type. Four hospitals on that list, before this one. I need verifiable physical evidence evaluated by credible independent parties for any claim of responsibility to be taken seriously.
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Testimony by Ghassan Abu Sitt, MSF doctor working in Gaza who was in al-Ahri Hospital at the time of the attack
https://twitter.com/FSBRG/status/1714609467206095255?t=MIcZcHtl6qzq-xOGd0luNg&s=19
We now know that the number of killed exceeds 500. This number will increase as I saw many dismembered bodies and parts of bodies as I carried my last patient into the ambulance past the courtyard.
Reports from Kirby from the White House.
https://twitter.com/MarquardtA/status/1714467358696190345?t=HisFJia6Z84_wC_02-Bd8A&s=19
Asked if the US was giving Israel the “benefit of the doubt,” Kirby paused a bit, @betsy_klein reports. “I think we certainly recognize that they feel very strongly that this was not caused by them,” Kirby said.
I feel very strongly that the US did not trade arms for hostages and my heart and best intentions tell me that is true
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Need more dirtbag journalists
Evidence or gtfo
The US is very weak in their backing of the Israeli claim. If they had robust intelligence, the US would have seen it by now.
Credit to @JamesConeZone:
Will post in the atrocities thread, but I think I’ve got a decent timeline of the hospital bombing. Please add anything that I’ve missed here
- Friday, 13th October – IDF orders evacuation of all northern Gaza and specifically ordered hospitals to evacuate (IDF English statement on twitter | UN response)
- Saturday, 14th October – Two attacks happen on Saturday. First, The IDF targeted the homes of three staff members, including the medical director, Dr Maher Ayyad (source). Second, the al-Ahli hospital’s cancer ward is hit by a missile at 7.30pm, injuring 4 staff members.. I think this was a warning shot.
- Sunday, 15th October – Thousands of refugees begin to take shelter in hospitals, including Al-Ahli. Hospital officials seem to have been warned several times to evacuate the premises. I don’t know enough Arabic to hunt down or confirm these sources but Arab TV quotes an “Evangelical (Protestant?) Church in Jerusalem” saying they were warned to evacuate the hospital three times via phone.
- Monday, 16th October – More refugees and warnings, I’m assuming. Reports continue to come out about how the hospital is overflowing with patients who have no where to go and that the hospital has no more medicine or supplies to treat them. The Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem, who run the hospital, declare a day of prayer and fasting for Tuesday, 17th October.
- Tuesday, 17th October – The IDF strike al-Ahli hospital with a guided missile during the day of prayer and fasting.
As discussion of the facts continue, I really want to again emphasise that the IDF had attacked the hospital already and targeted the homes of the medical director of the hospital. Finally, al-Ahli is one of fifteen hospitals that have been attacked in Gaza since 7th Oct (source).
Video of the parking lot of the Episcopal Church
https://twitter.com/Wyni16/status/1714648894854848599?t=aYWhWiuhuAcBIffea3T-lA&s=19
One car is completely overturned and a number of cars are destroyed. Context is that currently, every litre of fuel is being rationed to power generators. It’s unknown, but it’s likely that many of these cars have had significant amounts of fuel siphoned.
The fuel situation in the Gaza Strip is critical. The health ministry is desperate to source fuel for the hospitals and has issued alerts requesting anyone with even a litre of fuel to get in touch. A litre of fuel could save lives in Gaza. Al-Shifa Hospital has already been forced to close some of its departments due to lack of fuel for its emergency generators. Other hospitals have informed us that they will be forced to shut down in the coming hours.
Video of the strike - Middle East Monitor
This video should be sufficient to do a basic yield estimation, but I’m not experienced enough to do it.
Al Jazeera - CW: injuries and bodies
Geoconfirmed - video of rocket detonating in the air followed by detonation on the ground
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714675221750329558?t=bh_UwTDBSvt0dsh1EtsbvA&s=19
The flight path of the rocket is similar to those of MANPADS (initial burn, rapid secondary burn, detonation). Since the rocket hit the termination/detonation phase, there are no more explosives onboard.
The detonation on the ground is a single large flash followed by a cloud of smoke. No secondary detonation can be seen in this video.
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The light could maybe be explained by the difference in exposure. The TV clip seems a bit too dim to make out the rockets, but the other one is kinda bright. The buildings are pretty bright and that small sliver of light from that window might not make it out properly. I would really like to know what’s up with this camera or these cameras. Maybe this is the spot for journalists to put up unattended 24h livestream cameras, the terrible quality and the timestamp would suggest that. If there’s a person there though, it could explain how the picture changed in an hour. Maybe someone came by and fixed it in the meantime, like they only check on this camera every so often or they were out for a coffee or something. Would be really important to find the source of that other video.
Someone who knows how to do video editing should try to line up the pattern of the rocket launches. If they match exactly that’s pretty much proof one of the videos was doctored.
The 19:59 video is definitely not the same one as the 18:59 and the explosion that happens in that video is not in the same location as the 18:59 video.
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Do the videos from the ground suggest that either one is true?
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I think I agree. The AJ Arabic video has an explosion at 0:16 and another one at 0:19 (presumably at the hospital), which would mean that this video caught the 0:19 explosion (maybe triggered to record by the 0:16 explosion?)
This video ends before confirmation that the following strike from the 19:59 video didn’t occur.
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I’m very skeptical on the misfire argument simply because the sheer number of strikes in the AJ Arabic video would suggest that Hamas was shelling Gaza
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Looking at the explosion itself (through the metal gate), it looks like a rather large munition. I’m not convinced it’s caused by gasoline because I’m fairly sure a similarly sized gasoline explosion would need much more gas than fits in a few sedans.
For example, a jerry can (20L) “explosion” : https://youtu.be/jc3BIdbwGuE?si=2ukHqRUMTC_J9DqC
And a jerry can bonfire: https://youtu.be/eS4VDyE_PWs?si=KzOZMof2J9AHgUEO
Not even close to the same scale.
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If so, unspent fuel from the rocket looks like it had a larger explosive potential than the rocket itself. Maybe that’s fair? I’m not exactly a munitions expert.





