Sure, it might have some contentious pages, but it does get edited by people who care enough. Just like the article you linked says.
Why does a page need to be contentious to be biased and misleading? As you yourself demonstrate in this thread, media literacy and criticism are not widely adopted.
I already asked you some simple challenging questions that addresses this. Can you think about answering it? Why didn’t you already answer it? Why do you make me repeat myself?
And you said it yourself the source I used was fine.
I told you to read the actual books by Wheatcroft and Davies and suggested applying the mildest or critical thinking. Do you believe you are doing that right now or arw you being defensive and deflecting from critique?
If I misinterpreted the quote or of there’s more to the story you can clarify that and I’ll correct myself.
It seems you have missed the point entirely. Citing Wikipedia is like saying your mom you something once. Nobody has the onus of disproving what mommy told you. It is your job to actually study something before adopting the pretense that you understand it.
To do otherwise is arrogant and dishonest. And as we can see here, you are tryjng yo flip the onus and would like to believe you are right about what mommy yold you untio someone corrects you. Of course, as we have seen in this thread, when someone takes the time to do that, you respond in bad faith and deflect. All you’re really doing is building stratagems for being lazy and wrong.
Are you surprised when you aren’t taken seriously?
Citing Wikipedia is like saying your mom you something once
Not it’s really not. And like you and I both said the numbers quoted aren’t incorrect or come from a non-factual source. So saying this man killed a lot of people is not something incorrect. Regardless of your political ideologies or affiliations. So what critical thinking do you want me to employ here? Even if I read the book, what context would I be missing?
Someone else in this thread tried giving me the same message. Recommended a few books to me. One of them was written in the 30s so before a lot of the shit Stalin did. Another one literally backed up the numbers I quoted. So what are you and every other person in this thread arguing with me about here? Are you simply trying to tell me that wikipedia isn’t reliable? I would disagree as
nothing you or anyone else has said has led me to believe that my understsnding of this topic is incorrect, but I’ll leave you to your opinion in the matter. Just because you take issue with some articles that has millions of articles from a community built site does not delegtimize it in my eyes. Are you trying to tell me that Stalin did not cause a lot of deaths? That’s not really an argument up for debate as its well documented that he was.
Yeah it really is. It has no academic rigor. This is why teachers don’t let you cite it.
And like you and I both said the numbers quoted aren’t incorrect or come from a non-factual source.
Actually I didn’t say that and so far you haven’t even responded to my comment on your numbers. I’m not going to repeat myself so if you want to discuss the numbers maybe you could deign to directly respond, O Great Wiki Warrior.
So saying this man killed a lot of people is not something incorrect.
Saying that Stalin killed a lot of people would be unanimously accepted by every person on this website and Wikipedia isn’t how we know it lmao. We can all see the responses to you saying he killed lots of Nazis, for example, but you seem to be afraid of internalizing anything we say to you - or not saying silly things while being defensive.
Just try being honest. Kill the person in your head that says you can never admit fault. That person is a coward and full of shit and as you can see here, nobody likes them.
Regardless of your political ideologies or affiliations. So what critical thinking do you want me to employ here? Even if I read the book, what context would I be missing?
There is no mystery to what critical thinking I’ve asked of you. I asked you questions for you to yhink about two comments ago (that you ignored) and the comment you’re trying to ignore is quite clear. I think you can figure it out. I’ll help you out and repeat myself if you say, “sorry Barx, my bad. I went and triex to figure out what you meant by critical thinking and, shucks, I just couldn’t do it! Can you help me please?”
Someone else in this thread tried giving me the same message. Recommended a few books to me.
Because you display ignorance. They are being nicer to you than you are to them. They, unlike you, actually do the reading. Unlike you, they don’t rely on chickenshit rhetorical circles to avoid doing so.
One of them was written in the 30s so before a lot of the shit Stalin did.
That’s not a reason not to read it. See what I mean by chickenshit? If anything something from the 30s will be favorable to anticommunism simply because the Soviet archives were not available. If you weren’t deathly afraid of challenging yourself, you would learn that the archives largely contradicted Western exaggerations and guesses as well as Kruschevite antistalinism.
Another one literally backed up the numbers I quoted.
Did you read it? And for the third time, I’ve already replied to your numbers and you’ve not responded.
So what are you and every other person in this thread arguing with me about here?
I have been very clear. You can respond to what I say instead of pretending it’s a mystery.
Are you simply trying to tell me that wikipedia isn’t reliable?
What have I said about Wikipedia? Can you read it and tell me?
I would disagree as
nothing you or anyone else has said has led me to believe that my understsnding of this topic is incorrect
Yes, it is quite clear that you have made the propaganda you wish to believe unassailable. This is not because it is valid, but because you are being intellectually dishonest with yourself and others. For example, pretending to not know my criticism of you using Wikipedia, ignoring 75% of what I say to you, and relying on blatantly absurd rhetoric.
but I’ll leave you to your opinion in the mattyou
Difference being that I read the books while yoi skim Wikipedia to confuse yourself, so my opinions are correct and yours are propaganda.
Just because you take issue with some articles that has millions of articles from a community built site does not delegtimize it in my eyes.
The thing I told you to do is to read actual history books, including the ones you listed from Wikipedia despite not having read them, because Wikipedia is poisoned by, for example, Nazi apologetic debate perverts when it comes to social and political issues. You need to actually read critically, not just absorb whatever fits the bullshit you spent all of 10 minutes absorbing from others.
This is, apparently, too much for me to ask of you. God forbid you read a book or challenge the logic of a Wikipedia page. You might die in the process.
Are you trying to tell me that Stalin did not cause a lot of deaths? That’s not really an argument up for debate as its well documented that he was.
You thought this was such a good zinger you said it twice lmao.
So hey, what about the 80% of my comment you didn’t reply to? Why take up so much space saying silly nonsense instead of just replying to what I say?
I think I know the answet. But do you have the self-posession to say it?
Unironically, are you dyslexic? You keep saying we say things we haven’t said. If you’re gonna have a discussion with people, please relate to what is actually being said, rather than what you would like had been said instead.
I was referring to this part of the users comment where the user agreed it was an OK source.
Wheatcroft (who you have already cited) and Davies have some good overviews based on thr archives.
I told you wikipedia wasn’t useful. You asked what you should read instead. I gave you some good places to start for a basic education.
And I actually took a brief look at them did I not? I didn’t read every single book you gave me as I didn’t have the time yesterday but I did take a look at some of them.
I then made sure to make it very clear that no single source would every function as a panacea for ignorance
I mean sure and I agreed with you on that but I also pointed out the sources irrelevance on the discussion of Stalins body count which is what we’re actually discussing. I told you, it looked to be an interesting read based on the first few pages and some snippets I’ve read. And I’m sure I’ll learn a lot by reading it, if I ever find the time to do so.
Blackshirts and reds looked go be a much more relevant source to discuss and I actually read a bit of it. Not all of it, admittedly, but enough to get an idea. So once again, thank you for giving me a reading list that hopefully I will actually have time to read one day. I never mentioned it but I did actually save your comment so I can have the list handy.
Yet you keep talking about this interaction as if what happened was that you made some statement like “Stalin ordered the death of 2.7 million people, of which less than half were wehrmacht soldiers. This is found in sources [1] [2] [3]” And I then came in and said “oh yeah, what about source X Y Z?”
Yeah and I looked at some of them. Like I’ve said repeatedly. I literally asked you for them and took a look. I wasnt being sarcastic or rhetorical when asking. I’m not against reading and learning new material so stop pushing that narrative. It’s getting old.
On top of that you, for some reason, lend more credence to second hand sources rather than first hand sources, which is laughable. ON TOP OF THAT the only “source” you’ve posted was a pretty obvious asspull from a wikipedia article, where you didn’t even have the common decency to admit that was what it was.
I never denied that. I admitted to it when you called me out on it here. I decided to use the direct source instead of just quoting wikipedia since you and so many other seemed to have an issue with the site. So I figured this would be more accepted by the majority of people here. I’m not ashamed to say the bulk of what I learned about the USSR and its history is from wikipedia. And I never pretended to be some expert on the topic. All I said was some off-handed comment on Stalin killing a lot more than CEOs which sparked this whole discussion. And when asked on where I learned it I openly said wikipedia. I never tried to hide or deny that fact.
What? You haven’t quoted any numbers my guy
I was talking about this comment. I realize I wasn’t replying to you but you stepped in and replied to it so I figured you’d know what I was talking about.
You’re being incredibly unspecific, as it serves your agenda to be so.
I’m really not. I literally told you exactly where and how I got my understanding of Stalin and why I think the way I did. You said I should read alternate sources, so I asked what. You gave them to me. I took a look at them and said they’re good reads but they don’t exactly contradict what I was saying. You and others have mentioned that there was additional context that could be gleamed from reading these books and I never denied that. At most I said, to another user, that even after learning said context it wouldn’t exactly invalidate my statement or change it.
So am I. So let’s both agree the other person is an annoying dick and move on with our lives. Fuck off and go creep around in another thread to push your political ideologies and talking points. It’s getting tiring dealing with your bullshit.
You are such a frivolous, time-wasting, deeply unserious settler motherfucker. You are such a fantastic moron. Can’t handle being REPEATEDLY called out for perpetuating Amerikan-exceptionalist, slavery-propagating propaganda so you’re gonna take your cracker-assed ball and go right the fuck home with it to whine about how bad and evil and terroristic and just plain uncivil Hexbear is.
I’m more upset that my people on this fed wasted so much time on such a blatant 4chan-assed sealion of a cracker, really. You are such a blatant fascist I’m not sure why anyone wasted any more time on you than what it takes to drag your servile dog ass. Like, at least the other cracker shut the fuck up when it became clear that yeah, they really do ‘know’ more CIA-disseminated bullshit about gulags than what actually exists of Amerika’s still-intact slavery apparatus-- you, though, you don’t know when to sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up, and learn sumn for once in your clearly-privileged life.
Like any other western cishet white man. Loud, brash, and ignorant for fuckin nothing.
Why does a page need to be contentious to be biased and misleading? As you yourself demonstrate in this thread, media literacy and criticism are not widely adopted.
I already asked you some simple challenging questions that addresses this. Can you think about answering it? Why didn’t you already answer it? Why do you make me repeat myself?
I told you to read the actual books by Wheatcroft and Davies and suggested applying the mildest or critical thinking. Do you believe you are doing that right now or arw you being defensive and deflecting from critique?
It seems you have missed the point entirely. Citing Wikipedia is like saying your mom you something once. Nobody has the onus of disproving what mommy told you. It is your job to actually study something before adopting the pretense that you understand it.
To do otherwise is arrogant and dishonest. And as we can see here, you are tryjng yo flip the onus and would like to believe you are right about what mommy yold you untio someone corrects you. Of course, as we have seen in this thread, when someone takes the time to do that, you respond in bad faith and deflect. All you’re really doing is building stratagems for being lazy and wrong.
Are you surprised when you aren’t taken seriously?
Not it’s really not. And like you and I both said the numbers quoted aren’t incorrect or come from a non-factual source. So saying this man killed a lot of people is not something incorrect. Regardless of your political ideologies or affiliations. So what critical thinking do you want me to employ here? Even if I read the book, what context would I be missing?
Someone else in this thread tried giving me the same message. Recommended a few books to me. One of them was written in the 30s so before a lot of the shit Stalin did. Another one literally backed up the numbers I quoted. So what are you and every other person in this thread arguing with me about here? Are you simply trying to tell me that wikipedia isn’t reliable? I would disagree as nothing you or anyone else has said has led me to believe that my understsnding of this topic is incorrect, but I’ll leave you to your opinion in the matter. Just because you take issue with some articles that has millions of articles from a community built site does not delegtimize it in my eyes. Are you trying to tell me that Stalin did not cause a lot of deaths? That’s not really an argument up for debate as its well documented that he was.
Yeah it really is. It has no academic rigor. This is why teachers don’t let you cite it.
Actually I didn’t say that and so far you haven’t even responded to my comment on your numbers. I’m not going to repeat myself so if you want to discuss the numbers maybe you could deign to directly respond, O Great Wiki Warrior.
Saying that Stalin killed a lot of people would be unanimously accepted by every person on this website and Wikipedia isn’t how we know it lmao. We can all see the responses to you saying he killed lots of Nazis, for example, but you seem to be afraid of internalizing anything we say to you - or not saying silly things while being defensive.
Just try being honest. Kill the person in your head that says you can never admit fault. That person is a coward and full of shit and as you can see here, nobody likes them.
There is no mystery to what critical thinking I’ve asked of you. I asked you questions for you to yhink about two comments ago (that you ignored) and the comment you’re trying to ignore is quite clear. I think you can figure it out. I’ll help you out and repeat myself if you say, “sorry Barx, my bad. I went and triex to figure out what you meant by critical thinking and, shucks, I just couldn’t do it! Can you help me please?”
Because you display ignorance. They are being nicer to you than you are to them. They, unlike you, actually do the reading. Unlike you, they don’t rely on chickenshit rhetorical circles to avoid doing so.
That’s not a reason not to read it. See what I mean by chickenshit? If anything something from the 30s will be favorable to anticommunism simply because the Soviet archives were not available. If you weren’t deathly afraid of challenging yourself, you would learn that the archives largely contradicted Western exaggerations and guesses as well as Kruschevite antistalinism.
Did you read it? And for the third time, I’ve already replied to your numbers and you’ve not responded.
I have been very clear. You can respond to what I say instead of pretending it’s a mystery.
What have I said about Wikipedia? Can you read it and tell me?
Yes, it is quite clear that you have made the propaganda you wish to believe unassailable. This is not because it is valid, but because you are being intellectually dishonest with yourself and others. For example, pretending to not know my criticism of you using Wikipedia, ignoring 75% of what I say to you, and relying on blatantly absurd rhetoric.
Difference being that I read the books while yoi skim Wikipedia to confuse yourself, so my opinions are correct and yours are propaganda.
The thing I told you to do is to read actual history books, including the ones you listed from Wikipedia despite not having read them, because Wikipedia is poisoned by, for example, Nazi apologetic debate perverts when it comes to social and political issues. You need to actually read critically, not just absorb whatever fits the bullshit you spent all of 10 minutes absorbing from others.
This is, apparently, too much for me to ask of you. God forbid you read a book or challenge the logic of a Wikipedia page. You might die in the process.
You thought this was such a good zinger you said it twice lmao.
So hey, what about the 80% of my comment you didn’t reply to? Why take up so much space saying silly nonsense instead of just replying to what I say?
I think I know the answet. But do you have the self-posession to say it?
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I was referring to this part of the users comment where the user agreed it was an OK source.
And I actually took a brief look at them did I not? I didn’t read every single book you gave me as I didn’t have the time yesterday but I did take a look at some of them.
I mean sure and I agreed with you on that but I also pointed out the sources irrelevance on the discussion of Stalins body count which is what we’re actually discussing. I told you, it looked to be an interesting read based on the first few pages and some snippets I’ve read. And I’m sure I’ll learn a lot by reading it, if I ever find the time to do so.
Blackshirts and reds looked go be a much more relevant source to discuss and I actually read a bit of it. Not all of it, admittedly, but enough to get an idea. So once again, thank you for giving me a reading list that hopefully I will actually have time to read one day. I never mentioned it but I did actually save your comment so I can have the list handy.
Yeah and I looked at some of them. Like I’ve said repeatedly. I literally asked you for them and took a look. I wasnt being sarcastic or rhetorical when asking. I’m not against reading and learning new material so stop pushing that narrative. It’s getting old.
I never denied that. I admitted to it when you called me out on it here. I decided to use the direct source instead of just quoting wikipedia since you and so many other seemed to have an issue with the site. So I figured this would be more accepted by the majority of people here. I’m not ashamed to say the bulk of what I learned about the USSR and its history is from wikipedia. And I never pretended to be some expert on the topic. All I said was some off-handed comment on Stalin killing a lot more than CEOs which sparked this whole discussion. And when asked on where I learned it I openly said wikipedia. I never tried to hide or deny that fact.
I was talking about this comment. I realize I wasn’t replying to you but you stepped in and replied to it so I figured you’d know what I was talking about.
I’m really not. I literally told you exactly where and how I got my understanding of Stalin and why I think the way I did. You said I should read alternate sources, so I asked what. You gave them to me. I took a look at them and said they’re good reads but they don’t exactly contradict what I was saying. You and others have mentioned that there was additional context that could be gleamed from reading these books and I never denied that. At most I said, to another user, that even after learning said context it wouldn’t exactly invalidate my statement or change it.
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So am I. So let’s both agree the other person is an annoying dick and move on with our lives. Fuck off and go creep around in another thread to push your political ideologies and talking points. It’s getting tiring dealing with your bullshit.
You are such a frivolous, time-wasting, deeply unserious settler motherfucker. You are such a fantastic moron. Can’t handle being REPEATEDLY called out for perpetuating Amerikan-exceptionalist, slavery-propagating propaganda so you’re gonna take your cracker-assed ball and go right the fuck home with it to whine about how bad and evil and terroristic and just plain uncivil Hexbear is.
Ain’tcha, peckerwood?
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Awww did someone get butthurt when I didn’t buy into all their fucking bullshit? Go cry harder fucktits.
I’m more upset that my people on this fed wasted so much time on such a blatant 4chan-assed sealion of a cracker, really. You are such a blatant fascist I’m not sure why anyone wasted any more time on you than what it takes to drag your servile dog ass. Like, at least the other cracker shut the fuck up when it became clear that yeah, they really do ‘know’ more CIA-disseminated bullshit about gulags than what actually exists of Amerika’s still-intact slavery apparatus-- you, though, you don’t know when to sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up, and learn sumn for once in your clearly-privileged life.
Like any other western cishet white man. Loud, brash, and ignorant for fuckin nothing.
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This is a funny thing to say after losing an argument you started because people didn’t blindly accept your unsolicited political talking points
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