I wish they had tested all 8 scenarios: Male/female participant, male/female body, catcalled/not catcalled.
Because even as a man I don’t feel comfortable being alone at a subway station at night. Nor can I imagine would I then enjoy being catcalled.
I wonder how much your VR body seen in a mirror affects this. My gut says not a lot but more data would’ve been great.
Now, if your own VR body does affect your reaction there must be bodies which maximize/minimize reactions. That’d be fun to test. You don’t even have to limit yourself to human bodies, what if you’re, say, a dinosaur (with body height still being the same)?
But that would be actual science and not whatever the slop study in the article is.
I feel like if you’re going to slag off the study as “slop” you should at least follow the links to the study itself where you can see that they did in fact have a control group who were posed general questions instead of catcalling. They didn’t switch genders because that wasn’t the purpose of the study.
Thats a slop study through and through
They didn’t switch genders because that wasn’t the purpose of the study.
The purpose of the study being to get the results they wanted to get. That’s not science.
It’s basically a study of “do people like being assaulted”. No one does regardless of gender, but they took that as women don’t like being assaulted and men pretending to be women don’t like being assaulted. Therefore men pretending to be women in VR don’t like to be assaulted.
What sort of conclusion is that.
It would help to read the study so you don’t have to be wrong about things.
I did read it. It’s very very long though have you read all of it, I started to get bored when they started showing really complicated diagrams with no real explanation as to how they came to those conclusions.
Social studies is like that, it’s very much couched in the sort of science that you would normally expect of physics or engineering but all it’s conclusions are fuzzy but they come out with these concrete graphs to explain very personal responses. I find it to be intellectually dishonest to suggest that you can represent the world like that
“I don’t understand it so it’s wrong,” isn’t a great way to prove a point.
Social studies? Do you mean the neurology? Or the psychology? You know “fuzzy logic” is a form of math, right?
Maybe you got bored when they explained what metrics they used and how they applied them.
While my first reaction was the same - “how would they react in male avatars?”, that doesn’t seem to be the point at all of this study but rather the potential of VR to change the subjects behaviour in real life by helping empathy along.
Introduction
[…]
Peck et al.13 found that White participants, after embodying a Black avatar, showed a reduction in implicit racial bias.
This principle has been extended to the context of gender-based violence.
Seinfeld et al.14 had male offenders embody a female victim of domestic violence, finding that the VR experience significantly improved their ability to recognize fear in female facial expressions—a deficit common in violent offenders15.
Similarly, other studies using 360° videos and immersive scenarios of sexual harassment have reported marked increases in empathy and changes in violent attitudes among participants16.
[…]
These findings collectively affirm the potential of VR as a rehabilitative tool for enhancing emotional understanding and mitigating harmful behaviors.Building on this foundation, the present study utilizes immersive VR to provide male participants with a firsthand experience of catcalling.
While previous research has often focused on overt violence, our goal is to investigate the affective response to a more commonplace form of street harassment. We hypothesize that this embodied experience will elicit morally salient emotions like disgust and anger19,20,21.
By inducing this moral discomfort, the intervention aims to foster self-awareness and encourage a reconsideration of the behavior’s impact22, serving as a potential strategy to promote behavioral change.That’s fair, I only really glossed over the study.
But still, have they actually collected data to support illiciting these emotions works as a “potential strategy to promote behavioral change”? In the study, I haven’t found anything like a pre and post experiment survey showing a different attitude towards catcalling. In my mind that’s required to demonstrate the VR experiment is such a strategy.
And catcalled by M & F I guess?
I can where to say this. This is anything but science. Entertainment at best.
Regarding fear, our results show that this emotion is higher in the catcalling situation, however, there is no significant difference with the control condition. This suggests that experiencing an urban underground environment at night from a woman’s perspective is inherently fear-inducing, independent of explicit harassment.
Does it, though? It would be better if they had a control group where participants used a male avatar. My understanding is that both groups used female avatars:
In the experimental condition, the avatars used typical Italian catcalling expressions (documented in newspaper articles and sociological research on the topic of verbal street harassment), while in the control group (condition), the avatars posed general questions to the participants.
I have no doubt that it can be scary for a woman to be in this setting in real life. However, I’d like to see scientific proof that this feeling can be specifically induced in men who are controlling female characters in VR. Right now, it’s more of an assumption, isn’t it? As a gamer, I know that the location itself can be scary, that sound design (music, ambient sounds, voice acting) can be frightening, and that trying VR for the first time can also be uncomfortable.
I’d also be worried about the reaction being tainted by the target not being your desire. Like, I’d imagine a straight dude will be more uncomfortable being catcalled by a dude than a lady (regardless of whether their avatar is a woman or not). Obviously the study is a bit more robust than that, but it’s still an inherent issue hard to circumvent just with VR.
What does that have to do with anything? The only reason I’d be more comfortable with a woman cat-calling me is because I’m significantly bigger than most women and my position in society lends me a lot more power and confidence. Even if a dude did it I’d be way better off than if I were a woman so I can brush it off more easily. I’m also not attracted to every woman I see so what does it matter?
Besides, turn that around and ask yourself if you really think that a straight woman being cat-called by a man makes them feel any better. In fact, maybe the inherent lack of attraction found between a male participant and a male cat-caller actually makes the point that much stronger. “I’m not attracted to this person and yet they continue to pressure me and that makes me feel all the more unsafe”.
Why would it be assumption? Then it wouldn’t be a study? They tested for something and got predictable results. Assumption is when you don’t do that.
Here’s the link to the actual article.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-19418-4.pdf
Paper itself above. Need a deeper reading with my notes but on the surface the stats are so-so. They check normality, but don’t confirm linearity (use of pmcc will not be valid without - there are also a few other conditions to check for hypothesis testing with PMCC if memory serves), use of a continuous test (PMCC, ANOVA, unpaired t’s) for discrete (likert) data is also little controversial, but generally condoned.
As for the conclusion, not a psych phd so I’ll assume they know their stuff!
my personal rule of thumb is that if it’s published in Nature, Cell, or another well-regarded journal, the statistical and experimental methodologies are almost certainly solid. Do you think I should adjust that rule going forward?
Honestly, I always poke the stats no matter how good the journal. The best way to read any article is as a skeptic (the onus is on the writer to prove their point), and any small irregularity is something to be queried.
No matter how good the journal, it’s only as good as the reviewers, and reviewers are humans too. Odds are a paper in nature is all above board, but I’m somewhat of a pedant when it comes to checking test conditions.
i do that to, i also try to find most recent research, anything older than 5+years is suspect, because they always come with revised papers in newer studies/research eventually.
In some fields (e.g. mathematics) old papers hold up well. However, in fields like psychology where the landscape shifts a lot that’s probably a good shout!
sometimes, but they have retracted quite a few papers based on misleading papers, or even AI rgenerated. also because it can mislead readers into thinking “oh this is the sole cause and effect” but not potential alternative scenarios.
Thank you!
Turns out walking through a sketchy area and being harassed are scary no matter what genitalia you have.
Yeah, but the point here is that they were posing as women with female looking avatars. One guy even says that he would have reacted differently if it was male:
Another participant reported that he would have reacted differently had he been in the role of a man, but since he was embodying a female character, he chose instead to walk away.
I looked at the comments.
I knew it was a mistake, I did it anyways.
It sure was a mistake.
I would look at the study, while the problem is 100% real and anyone with any empathy should realize is real, to say the study supports it is a bit far fetched. Looking at the scenarios they created and the avatars, it’s all a bit uncanny valley and backrooms sort of feeling. Sort of ps2 graphics but in vr.
E: I think the conclusion puts it best, vr is a good tool for showing people what a lot of women have to deal with, and how terrible it can feel. It’s like rp for people who have trouble empathizing or don’t get why it matters.
I just had surgery and have grown a new appreciation for the fear women can feel. Im a taller dude and lifted 4-5 days a week, so im fairly bigger than other guys my size, but since my surgery im so fucking fragile and have no ability to defend myself. I live in a city and walking around at night has become a whole new experience. Before I never worried much being out alone, but now I have a constant anxiety, a fear that someone will come and overpower me. Hurt me.
I know its not entirely the same, but the fear of others in this capacity definitely makes me much more empathetic towards what I used to view as overreaction.
Ladies, I apologize.
Lady here.
You don’t have to be sorry, just stay safe and keep trying to be a good person. I wish you well on your recovery.
edit: It’s not so much about being overpowered, though that is a thing, as the mental exhaustion from having to deal with so many people who think you owe them something. The book “Verbal Judo” helped me way more than self-defense classes, I recommend it, it’s the art of de-escalation by being snarky and delightful.
Did anyone study the opposite? I remember reading about a woman that pretended to be a man for a few weeks to write a book about it, and she described it as something like “soul crushingly lonely”.
Norah Vincent. She was particularly beloved by the manosphere because her experience pretending to be a man for 18 months (not just a few weeks) lead to her “conversion” from a feminist to realising that men too have their own problems.
Thought, she personally was already libertarian, and highly critical of trans people, so she reads more like a TERF imo.
Sadly passed away via assisted suicide a few years ago.
Norah Vincent - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norah_Vincent
Which is super ironic, as feminism acknowledges mens issues.
It just doesn’t always feel like it takes them as seriously
Like when? Can you give me an example?
Conscription, parental treatment especially during custody battles are some of the things often talked about where I live. Especially the former one is one of the most blatant examples of men and women being treated differently. But it’s not very high on the agenda for feminist orgs.
What do you think is high in feminist agenda orgs? Because I don’t know what you mean.
You can see the agendas for yourself here for two of the orgs I based this on:
https://naisunioni.fi/polohjelma/
https://www.feministinenpuolue.fi/tavoitteemme/poliittiset-ohjelmat/#yleisohjelma
I don’t know of any studies, but I have heard anecdotes from trans men that say the same thing.
I once read a very well put together comment by a trans man on the subject of their experience with this before and after transitioning, and basically, because men are never supposed to show emotion, their relationships lack a level of emotional intimacy at a fundamental level. They said that their relationships with other men felt hollow and largely superficial.
It’s also why men seemingly mistake friendship from women as flirting so frequently - because women can have a true emotional connection in their friendships with other women, but men can only get that same level of connection in romantic relationships or life or death scenarios such as war. Women also often treat men more coldly than they do other women as a result of this to avoid being mistaken for flirting with every man that they talk to (or because they view men as dangerous).
This looks more like sexism dressed up as science, rather than science.
If the men really felt that they were in the body of a woman, then I would expect the overwhelming emotion to be gender dysphoria.
If not, then they answered whatever they felt they should. That’s a well-known problem in such studies (eg Social Desirability Bias). Maybe they answered what they felt the interviewer wanted to hear. Or maybe they just regurgitated sexist stereotypes. Imagine putting the avatar in a dirty kitchen and asking: Don’t you feel an overwhelming desire to clean?
But suppose that this is a good “empathy building” exercise. What is the take-away? Say, some years down the road, these men are hiring employees. There are qualified female candidates, but the job requires working at night, or maybe being alone with male clients. Hmm. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.
A couple of years ago I played VR paintball with my gf’s avatar without a mic and got to experience first hand what it feels like to be aggressively hit on. I didn’t want to play with a female avatar from there on.
But that was real. It didn’t artificially reify stereotypes of women being scared in subway stations at night. The take-away was simply that this stuff is annoying.
I thought of something: Anorexia. That condition where people, mainly young women, starve themselves to death. This is often claimed to be the result of unrealistic beauty standards in media. Women are also more often diagnosed with phobias. Why aren’t we talking more about a possible role for stereotypes here.
FWIW, I am very skeptical about the role of beauty standards in anorexia. Vague societal expectations seem a poor explanation for something as drastic as starving yourself to death, especially given how most people are overweight. But I am also sure that my behavior would be different in many ways, if I wasn’t expected to “man up”.
Your takeaway from my experience was that it was annoying? I felt attacked, vulnerable and defenseless, to say it was mere annoying is an underestimation you seem to make quite quickly. Since you are interested in anorexia I might recommend starting from the wikipedia article that lists the causes linked to it, which are numerous in addition to societal pressure.
What made it so bad?
Also, statistically most of them were heterosexual, and it seems obvious that most heterosexual men don’t want to be catcalled by other men. Homophobia etc.
My guess is that the men who don’t think they’d be bothered by cat-calling are imagining a scenario where there are lots of other people around and the risk of being physically attacked is very low. (Something like the stereotypical image of construction workers whistling at a woman walking by them on a busy sidewalk.) Being on a nearly-empty subway platform with the only other guy nearby accosting you is a genuinely risky situation even without pretending that you’re a woman.
One time I was walking on the sidewalk when a car with several young women drove by and one of them leaned out the window and yelled something at me. I didn’t hear what she said but I like to think that it was positive and it made my day, but the caveat is that I did not feel like I was in any physical danger at all from them.
You said it. I compared notes, once, with my partner at the time, who occasionally dressed a bit flamboyant. Being shouted at made him feel annoyed and sad, which sucks, but he thought that put him on the same level as me.
The difference was he could recall each time he was catcalled, and was surprised to hear it happened just about daily to me. Even more surprised to hear that sometimes when I didn’t respond, guys have followed me and kept shouting. Sometimes in groups. Extremely surprised to hear that on a few occasions I’ve actually had to run from these groups.
Catcalling is easy to ignore, but considering I literally had to run from strangers, I still slide my keys between my knuckles and get ready to sprint whenever I hear it.
Half Life 2 graphics for maximum immersion
“You. Pick up that can.”
bends over
“Nice!”
*blushes*
Welcome to city 17
I mean… I’d feel disgust, anger and fear.
One time I was one of the very first people to play an MMO so my friends and I all grabbed up some really good names that are always taken before we start. I made six characters, two female, one of which I named “Beyonce” and put effort into making it look as much like her as possible.
On five of the characters people pretty much ignored me entirely, as usual. But when I played Beyonce people wanted to talk to me all the time. They would constantly invite me to stuff, give me things, name drop me in chat. Just kind of gather around me in town. Even other men who were playing female characters just assumed I was a woman.
I don’t know what it was about that character specifically, but it was a valuable insight into the life of women.
I had an extremely similar experience. It was astonishing how quick people assume you are a woman simply by having decent enough grammar and aren’t a shitty person.
At least in an MMO it’s not dangerous feeling. If anything, it kind of makes it easier to lead groups since you can get people to just do stuff with you. Not great insight into being a women though, people don’t generally accept female leadership irl.
At least in an MMO it’s not dangerous feeling.
This is true, as you are kinda protected by the avatar and screen as layers between you and the others. I’d imagine the fear can definitely seep into gaming as well though, if you start getting harassing private messages and all that
A running joke could be renaming the genders as “solo” and “co-op” for MMOs.
I know what we are doing today, Ferb.
Kind of unfortunate, that even here on lemmy most comments immediately flip to “but as a man I also feel scared”. True, but it’s not what this study is about. Maybe in 2026 we can try to just read something like this and take it as a prompt that, maybe, some things are not about us. Maybe we should do something about catcalling. We can talk about violence against men and loneliness at a different occasion.
Living in Japan, the country famous for being completely safe for everyone, this gap recently became clearer to me. As it turns out, when people talk about safety in Japan, they primarily mean that you won’t be beaten up and nobody steals your wallet. But there are so many weird creeps around here. I’m really quite happy I don’t live here as a woman.
My SO praises Sweden so much, nobody catcalls and people only bother you because you don’t have your bicycle helmet and that (only) annoys all genders.
The language of the post says something that cannot be (meaningfully) derived without a control group of people that didn’t experience a counterpoint: “… the situation of being a young woman alone at night in a subway station being enough to generate the sense of fear.”
As I understand it, everyone in the study experienced all of that in combination, so any subset of those things may have been enough to generate a sense of fear: being alone, being at night, being a young woman, or being on a subway station.
The common objection I see is that everyone feels fear alone on a subway station at night, so the statement is misleading. That matches my personal experience, so I also see that statement as misleading, regardless of any work done by the study.
Interesting experiment.
Some very condensed info:
Women disproportionately experience gender based violence and aggression in the wild. Researchers wanted to see if the experience of men being harassed and catcalled in a woman’s avatar could promote empathy and understanding. This experiment on 36 male students (average age of 23) was based on other studies that found similar results, including a study on male offenders of gender based violence — to test if first-person VR experiences as women could increase pro-social behaviors.
The students had “no prior experience” with interpersonal aggression or catcalling as victims or perpetrators, measured on a scale with a maximum threshold.
The scene began in a bedroom, where participants were able to move and see themselves as their avatar in a mirror.
In a control group, the participants were asked innocuous questions instead of being catcalled.
Edit: For anyone asking: Why didn’t they study why men don’t feel safe? You can look up and post those studies. Nothing is stopping you. This is about the prosocial effects of this VR scenario. Need more support? !mensliberation@lemmy.ca and !mensmentalhealth@lemmy.world are two great communities to discuss men’s issues.
Welcome. Welcome to our study. You have either chosen or been chosen…
Similar social experiments include the same fear from being on the receiving end of society when people in real life dressed as Muslims, Jews, homeless people, even as black people (much harder to do). There is such trusism as walking in the shoes of another person. Living as them for a week would be most interesting.
Black Like Me was eye opening for a lot of people. Even John Howard Griffin, who did blackface to understand the black southern experience, and already fought for civil rights, was surprised by how he was treated.
If I remember it right, at the beginning of his journey he had to beg and find help because he was refused service when trying to cash his travellers checks.
just a little bit empathy and imagination… and creepy video game textures
