I mean… I kinda get it, but nowadays it’s starting to get absurd.
(EDIT: This was supposed to be a “blow air out my nose and get on with my life” meme…)
Inside me are two wolves
One thinks Chinese tech is cool and innovative
The other hates fascist dictatorships
*both of the wolves are gay
Those are really Based wolves. Can I borrow them?
You may or may not think China is “authoritarian” but how on earth are they fascist?
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Far right? Hm, maybe not. Otherwise: Check, check, quasi-check, check, check, check, …
China has become a psudo Capitalist country in its quest for world domination.
Capitalism goes hand in hand with right wing extremism
I think China would have to do a lot more for the avg person before they could be considered socialist or communist again
Socialism isn’t when the government does stuff for the people, it’s when the people take matters into their own hands and do stuff for the good of each other. Even if a state behaves in the most benevolent way possible, it is not socialist unless the workers have collective ownership of the means of production.
By that definition there are no socialist countries.
When people talk about socialism in the real world it doesn’t mean owning the means of production
Only because the very concepts of ownership and the collective-individual dichotomy are necessarily vague and subjective. China considers themselves socialist because they equivocate the people with the state. If the people are collectively represented by the state and the state owns (some of) the means of production, then at least transitively the people own (some of) the means of production.
As an anarchist I don’t believe the state adequately represents the interests of the people, nor do I think it could even if it were radically democratic and egalitarian, though I would still certainly prefer that to the existing status quo. Somewhere a line must be drawn arbitrarily and I prefer to draw it on the other side of authoritarian state control.
China considers themselves socialist because they equivocate the people with the state.
Isn’t that kinda the line between socialism and communism? That communism has no state, but that a socialist state can act as a sort of intermediary.
Not that it’s the only socialist model, mind you; a market economy composed entirely of individual private worker co-ops is another model, for example. Then there’s the issue of implementation, whether the people actually democratically control the government.
But ideologically, while not communist, I don’t see how that structure can’t be considered socialist.
I think China would have to do a lot more for the avg person before they could be considered socialist or communist again
Within the last five years China completely eliminated the worst category of poverty in their borders. I’d say they are currently actively engaged in doing a lot more for the average person than most countries.
If you can take the Chinese Government for their word. Which I can’t
- https://press.un.org/en/2019/sgsm19779.doc.htm
Helping 800 Million People Escape Poverty Was Greatest Such Effort in History, Says Secretary-General, on Seventieth Anniversary of China’s Founding - https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience
Lifting 800 Million People Out of Poverty – New Report Looks at Lessons from China’s Experience
- https://press.un.org/en/2019/sgsm19779.doc.htm
Do you take the Chinese citizens at theirs?
Very few governments on this planet have approval numbers this good, and even fewer have numbers this good when it’s a neutral third party conducting the surveys.
I’m sorry but a dictator for life is a dealbreaker.
I’ll admit that a truly dedicated and benevolent dictator could run a good society, there are a few examples in the past too.
But it’s going to collapse once daddy dies like every dictatorship.
You could say the same about every developed nation. It took a bit more for most nations, but these nations had to literally invent concepts like public health and education, welfare and even socialism.
But yeah, every western European country has already eliminated the worst kind of poverty and on average European citizens are better off than Chinese citizens. Working conditions, working hours and safety laws in Europe are much better than the Chinese average.
The US is doing its own thing with extreme capitalism, and I’m against that, but let’s not kid ourselves, China has taken a lot of pages from the US’s economic model
You could say the same about every developed nation
“Developed nation” is a propaganda term designed to make you think that the overexploited nations of the world are on some mythical path that will lead them to a first world quality of life.
every western European country has already eliminated the worst kind of poverty and on average European citizens are better off than Chinese citizens
This is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Europe is the beneficiary of hundreds of years of imperialism and accumulation and the ongoing system of global unequal exchange, whereas China is a former victim of said imperialism that has pulled themselves out of the muck with their own workers’ labor. China is better off compared to India, which achieved independence not long afterward but has fallen far behind in every single development index because of their failure to overthrow capital.
European workers didn’t get their rights from being imperialist, they fought hard against the imperialist elites to get where they are now, and China’s elites are being just as imperialist today as any European or American elite has been since forever.
China and India is apples to oranges. There are a myriad of reasons why their paths diverged. There are other East Asian countries that did better than China way before China, while starting from a much more similar point (or even a worse point).
So… Authoritarian, and not far right… So… Not fascist.
Calling a government fascist, but not far-right is like calling Death Valley a lake. There’s no fucking water (anymore), its not a fucking lake.
Mate, the only thing missing from that list to also check far right would be extreme conservatism. No idea how much China is conservative and how much that matters compared to other things. It would be like death valley in a different country.
You simply don’t understand.
Far-right, ultra-conservative, and fascist are synonyms. There is no difference between these terms.
They all describe the same thing; fascism.
Last time I checked the definition of these things they were clearly separat. Things change fast today, seemingly.
The far-right part is critical though. It’s kind of like how breast cancer needs to be in breast tissues. China is just authoritarian.
Exactly. China is colon cancer, not breast cancer
I mean yeah… Far right is kinda a big part of distinguishing authoritarian left vs authoritarian right. I think the only way you could possibly conflate the two is by ignoring economics.
Tradition is big. E.g TCM crap over science
You cannot disagree with the state
Stokes fear and hatred of outsiders
Blames social frustrations on those outsiders
Appeals to restore past glory
Han ethnic supremacy
You could go through all of Eco’s points and apply them to China pretty fittingly.
Been on xiaohongshu for a while now and the chinese netizens I interacted with were nothing but kind to foreigners even when we treated them like shit.
Anecdotal evidence means nothing, doubly so from a .ml troll.
You can literally go on XHS or douyin and speak with them yourself
I’ve lived in China. I’ve had Chinese live with me. I actually know shit without going on social media and being fed propaganda.
Do tell, I’d love to know about your experience there
You’re interacting with the ones who are still allowed internet access.
Many of them use VPNs to get around firewalls and I speak with them aswell on other platforms. I am learning mandarin and it is quite helpful. I don’t like everypart of their society, there is still some of misogyny and homophobia that makes me uncomfortable but I have seen worse here. The people of xiaohongshu are actually making great strides to combat this and I applaud them. I have probably spoken candidly with people from every major city. What makes you think people without global internet are inherently more reactionary. Wouldn’t their views be reflected in the people that have that access as well? If it is so nation wide?
Cool.
I’m glad their lives aren’t hell under their fascist regime.
Most of the time when a country tries to make an ethnostate the main race get to live pretty good lives.
Wild that you actually think China is a Han ethnostate. Are you the type to believe they are sterilizing their minorities?
Hold up, you think people in China aren’t allowed to access Chinese apps? 🤣
Appeals to restore past glory
Genuinely, what on earth are you talking about? China’s past is full of poverty, humiliation, and exploitation, literally, “The century of humiliation!” The only people who “appeal to restore past glory” are the CIA-funded Shen Yun performances romanticizing “China before communism.” The Chinese people I talk to will specifically point to the Qing as a clear demonstration of the danger of clinging to tradition and the necessity of adapting and looking forward.
China literally had a cultural revolution seeking to abolish tradition. I expect you would call that fascist just as you call if fascist whenever some people still follow tradition, after all:
“During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology… What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.”
Ok what about Robert Paxton’s? Those are a lot better thought out as his actual focus is fascism rather than it being a side gig like it is for Eco.
This is all some seriously internalized US propaganda.
What is? Calling China fascist isn’t American propaganda because the government and its sources do not claim China is fascist. The Americans calling China fascist are poorly educated in fascism. China is authoritarian but not fascist.
I’m agreeing with you for the most part, their list of talking points is the propaganda.
Anything negative of China is propaganda says the .ml tankie.
Gee, you wouldn’t happen to be utterly biased at all.
Lmao you know ml just stands for Mali in this case right? Like do you think they’re doing ideological purity testing when you sign up? Do you think my whole instance is CCP agents?
So if you post on social media “I think Dictator Xi should be removed from office and we should have real elections again” nothing will happen?
I feel like something happens if you post that in China that you don’t want to talk about.
You can’t ask that in any authoritarian nation so. that isn’t demonstrating that China is fascist.
Doublethink is cringe.
Stop with the mental gymnastics before you pull a muscle
Saying something “is cringe” is a great way o demonstrate poor communication skills.
Nothing you mention is unique to fascism nor would be used by educated people to determine if a nation is fascist.
It’s ok that you know nothing about fascism as that is downright common on Lemmy but don’t double down on the arrogance after proving your ignorance.
What happens? Do you have any evidence of what happens besides your imagination?
We don’t have to imagine because they do that already.
This is exactly the propaganda I’m referring to. I’m sure some people are being detained unjustly. I’m also very sure that number, whether per capita or in raw headcount, is a lot lower than in the US.
Not agreeing with your dictator makes it impossible to leave the country, keeps your bloodline out of good schools, and if your rhetoric is bad enough you just get abducted and dissappear.
Social Credit Scores are dehumanizing and evil.
Pretty fascist if you ask me.
The social credit score stuff is basically a Western myth. There was some local level rumblings and plans, but most of it has been unpopular or axed. The only thing that exists at a national level for individuals is the equivalent of a credit score in the US and western countries. I believed this narrative at one point, but then I delved deeper. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/11/22/1063605/china-announced-a-new-social-credit-law-what-does-it-mean/
If you talk bad about the dictator they take away your right to buy train and airline tickets to escape the country.
This is real policy.
There are repercussions for saying you want free and fair elections, that is unacceptable
Do you have a source so I could read more about it?
No, no it’s not.
Ok live in your fantasy world where the CCP public policy doesn’t say that.
can you link?
Everything you listed is common to all authoritarian systems not just fascism. China is authoritarian not fascist.
I think many might reference the Uyghur genocide + extreme authoritarianism to explain why they call China fascist. I personally, am not educated on the persecution of the Uyghur genocide part, so I’m not so sure.
But China definitely has hints of nationalism and “former glory” or whatever when they start talking about Taiwan and the South China Sea. Sooo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is copy pasted but solid information, I can list plenty more as well. America loved to lie about the USSR then and they love to lie about China now. They use the same disprovable tactics but we fall for them because we are a new generation and have been taught propaganda in our history classes as if it is fact.
The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”.
However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let’s just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.
This is a photo of Rikers Island, New York City’s biggest prison. The actual size of a facility interning ten thousand people.
According to Wikipedia, “The average daily inmate population on the island is about 10,000, although it can hold a maximum of 15,000.” Let’s assume this is a Xinjiang detention camp, holding ten to fifteen thousand people. How many of these would it take to hold one million people?
Let’s do some math:
Rikers Size Rikers Prisoners One Million Uyghurs Size 413.2 acres (0.645 square miles) 10,000 to 15,000 43 to 64 square miles In reality, one million people would probably take more space; all the supposed detention camps we see are much less dense than Rikers.
For comparison, San Francisco is 47 square miles. Amsterdam is 64 square miles. You’d literally need detention camps that total the size of San Francisco or Amsterdam to intern one million Uyghurs. It’d be like looking at a map of California. There’s Los Angeles. There’s San Diego. And look, there’s San Francisco Concentration City with its one million Uyghurs.
Literally visible to the naked eye from space.
CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn’t even make sense from logistics perspective.
Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz who is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he’s the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I’m talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.
Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”
Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.
The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it’s clear that the methodology of his “research” doesn’t pass any kind of muster when examined closely.
It’s also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here’s George Bush’s chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here’s an excerpt:
US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they’ve been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west. In fact, US even classified Uyghur separatists as a terrorist group at one point https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-was-at-war-uyghur-terrorists-now-claims-etim-doesnt-exist/276916/
Here’s an interview with a son of imam killed in Xinjiang https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-19/Son-of-imam-assassinated-in-Kashgar-s-2014-mosque-attack-speaks-out-RqNiyrcRuo/index.html
Here’s an account from a Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) claims that western media reports on “atrocities” are lies. https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/
It’s also worth noting that the accusations originate entirely from the west while Muslim majority countries support China, and their leaders have visited Xinjiang many times.
- https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/on-eid-xinjiang-imams-defend-china-against-u-s-criticism-1.5425967
- https://www.bolnews.com/latest/2023/07/pak-religious-leaders-nurture-bonds-of-cooperation-with-xinjiang/
- https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/islamic-envoys-say-china-is-protecting-minorities-in-xinjiang-after-five-day-visit
Also notable that whenever western media actually deigns to visit Xinjiang, which is not often, they’re unable to produce support for any of their claims of mass imprisonment and oppression, so they opt for insinuations instead https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
There’s a further list of debunking here if you’re interested https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/
The whole thing is very clearly a propaganda blitz that US is cynically using to manipulate impressionable people in the west.
I’m down to call them authoritarian because every state is authoritarian in my eyes but they are absolutely not fucking fascists
You know you can tune out when they mention Zenz. He is to tankies as Soros is to Republicans.
Is there anything you could share that would shed more light on the Zenz thing? I’m not very keen on just “tuning out” my ideological opponents or dismissing them just because they don’t affirm my biases. I’d rather read up on it myself and decide.
Part of admitting that I’m not immune to propaganda, for me, is working to root it out wherever I can by reading and cross-referencing a wide range of sources. If my deepest beliefs and biases can’t stand up to that sort of scrutiny then I don’t want them anymore.
China isn’t fascist though? They are just a shitty authoritarian state.
Hello, I’m the other wolf
Accurate
You might want to go to the doctor
Uwu
Let’s be honest: the only reason for this is the oppressive chinese government, dead stop
I think part of it is being extra defensive considering our tankie neighbors… I don’t have any issues with the people of China, the culture of China, etc, etc.
I’ve always thought that everyone was on the same page about China’s oppressive government, but now it feels like it needs to be said, as there are people actively arguing in its favor.
Naw the same shit happens on Reddit and Facebook and every other place that isn’t TikTok or XHS. There’s a chart that shows Americans’ opinion of China being more or less 50/50 until 2015ish and then turning sharply negative after the trade war/propaganda blitz against them that started during Trump’s first term.
I hope that in publicly questioning the narratives I’ve been fed all my life I am not assumed to be advocating for China.
I just like to try to think critically, compare disparate sources, and not pretend that I’m somehow immune to propaganda.
It seems like people are quick to try to label me a tankie these days for engaging with the world in that way, but I don’t consider myself a tankie. It feels like a thought-terminating cliche.
Oh I have zero issues with all the beautiful cultural qualities of China, just as I don’t have that with any culture. I also have zero qualms with your average American (except the loud mouth “amuuurica fuck yeah!” types, those are insufferable)
I have big issues with the Chinese government, with the US government, etc.
You cannot be on the side of the people of China, and claim China has an oppressive government.
Um, yes you obviously can
…given China is an open socialist democracy, no, no you can’t.
Anyone can run for office, anyone can get power.
You understand that even a democratic government can be oppressive, right? You can absolutely dislike a government without disliking the people it represents.
I bet if I would say “america is a democracy but it is oppressive”, they would agree, or start to express how it isn’t a democracy, because only wealthy people have a realistic shot.
People who claim shit like you can’t like the people and dislike the government in a democracy, are telling me that I can’t like my friends and love my partner. I mean e.g. I met her after I dislike her government at the time.
Sure, the kakistocracy of the US can be called an oppressive democracy since only the rich vote on legislation, but that’s different from the peoples parliament which allows anyone to join and have power.
So, by your logic, you hate the people of the United States, right?
共匪滾開
Don’t forget things like China blatantly stealing IP fro the west.
And rich Chinese buying up land in western countries.
And rich Chinese students going to universities in the west and then buying/cheating their way through their degree.
And (this might come under your point) destroying domestic industries of western countries by flooding the market with cheap inferior products.
Agreed, though a lot of these things are also just a result of it’s government
There really is no justification to simp for any country/government. They are all pretty terrible and genocidal.
Nationalism, and especially jingoism, are very dangerous indeed.
these are the reasons I think this happens:
- their numerous accusations of spyware
- their government being fucked up (especially their censorship)
- being known for making a lot of mass-produced garbage for cheap
- the working conditions in those factories being horrible
- regular racism (which may be caused by the above)
edit: reworked comment into bulleted list instead of run-on sentence
- their government being fucked up (especially their censorship)
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
They have far more purchasing power for food, rent. Their healthcare is affordable. While censorship is a thing towards certain topics, there certainly isn’t a lack of discussion. They have far better public transit systems, far more parks, and public utilities, absolute ownership (no property tax).
To me it seems we’re continuously demonizing the lives of those we don’t understand who are actually far better off than most of us in the states.
I lived and worked outside Shanghai for a bit, but it was a while ago and probably has changed a good bit. What makes you think their lives are far better off than those in the states?
Not necessarily disagreeing, but it absolutely was not the case 15 years ago. American life is on a downhill though, zero argument there.
Right now I look at my life in the late 20s in the states and even despite having a well paying tech job, I will have to sacrifice everything in my life in order to have a family or even own a house and those two are exclusive of each other. Although not in deep debt, I’ve definitely had to pay my fair share towards medical and student debt.
I’m watching critical infrastructure projects that could impact so many people take 30 years to build.
The amount of homeless we see on the streets is our own governmental failure and the increased crime associated with it. Seeing what I see in US streets really can wear an empathetic person down, it’s a cruel world here.
Our diet and price to eat healthy in the US is continuously worsening (yes this is a choice to an extent but also a cultural problem that grows over time)
And even though it’s absolutely recency bias, the deportation of Latinos does not strike confidence in me given my heritage.
I do think China has changed a lot in the last 15-30 years, and don’t get me wrong I don’t think it’s a perfect life, I understand there’s an infinite amount of competition for well paying jobs, and housing prices are extremely high (albeit not as high relative to ours). But when you show me how China has effectively succeeded at each of these topics compared to our own governmental failures that I experience on the daily, it makes me question my own life here and why people immediately criticize China without nuance.
I do feel for you, I know life in the US has gotten much worse recently and I feel that’s accelerating.
I’m not so sure life in China is better per se, but it is different.
I will probably blanket statement this and say life in the EU seems a lot better than in the US now, though with plenty of problems depending on where you go. I say this as someone who left the US for the EU.
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
Because the social contract of 21st century authoritarian societies is “We give you prosperity, you do politics through gov-approved channels.” Punishment for dissent depends on how insecure the state feels right now.
On the plus side, the government cares about your prosperity. As long as it lasts, elites can divide power among themselves however they like.
On the minus – society doesn’t control its government (power transition happens by committee, not elections) and it can’t force any kind of change when elites are against it. Modern states have so much repression power, they can shut down any activism when they don’t mind bloodstains.
And when prosperity ends, the new contract will be “Do as we say and nobody gets tortured”.
The entire country tried to revolt in 1989 and millions of citizens were killed by their own military. People who speak out lose access to most services and can’t even sign up for online platforms.
Right now China is experiencing a massive homelessness crisis because their assigned homes aren’t in the places they live and work.
The entire country tried to revolt in 1984 and millions of citizens were killed by their own military
Literally nobody claims that millions died, that’s flat earth levels of alternate reality.
The entire country tried to revolt in 1984 and millions of citizens were killed by their own military.
What?
B-but rent prices in LA!
What happened in 1984?
What the fuck are you talking about
China
What in the massive misinformation clusterfuck is happening in your brain?
Do people still use Jim Crowe laws to talk about the daily life of US citizens? These are 40-60 year old discussion that do not adequately describe what life is like to the average citizen today.
Yeah they have their own homeless issues, but imo having a homeless population who has a job and chooses not to return home vs one that has nothing is two very different situations and almost incomparable problems.
People do still talk about Jim Crowe laws, yes, and also the same singular party rules China today and they still regularly suppress protests with military especially in regions they more recently expressed complete authority over such as Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Tibet.
Why does every discussion around China devolve into this as if the US doesn’t also do this?
Instead let’s discuss how average Chinese citizen in Shanghai is doing compared to the average citizen in San Francisco and have a real discussion between the two countries and how their government impacts their life.
Why does every discussion about China also have to be about their many many enemies all over the world as a direct result of their opaque cruelty?
Why can’t we just discuss what is wrong with China?
Because this exact statement can also be applied to the US? Which to be frank I’m all for talking about, the US probably has the most enemies in the world. But regardless this discussion is intended to be about the government impacts on their citizens.
Whatabout what about whatabout
more recently expressed complete authority over such as Taiwan
What complete authority does the PRC have over Taiwan? Their position now is the same as its been for seventy years - they consider it part of their country but exercise no actual control over it.
they consider it part of their country
They also aggressively censor and harass any claims that Taiwan is its own country.
Quite frankly, I think you’re failing to see that a major part of American culture, a literal founding principle, is “live free or die”. Americans are obviously not going to take that censorship as just a small downside.
Quality of life is less important than freedom.
absolute ownership (no property tax).
This is also just a lie. They don’t own land.
Pointing out Americans system of live free or dying to avert censorship while also repeating US propaganda about China is hilariously ironic
What happens to the land/house you own if you don’t pay property tax in the US? Chinas 70 year lease is effectively a more solidified ownership than the US.
Chinas 70 year lease is effectively a more solidified ownership than the US.
That’s pure philosophy. I would argue that complete legal ownership is more ownership…
repeating US propaganda about China is hilariously ironic
None of what I said was propaganda lmfao. Lease is just pure facts, and censorship is something that you’d have to be blind to think isn’t real.
Whatabout whatabout whatabout
We, in fact, do own land. We just have an explicit contract with our government vs the implicit one people in the US have. Look into imminent domain seizures in the US.
Whatabout whatabout whatabout
Using comparisons to make a point is not whataboubtism, Mr. Shapiro.
…you know that a lease isn’t ownership right?
Look into imminent domain seizures in the US.
Yes, they can take land you own… That doesn’t mean you don’t own it lol. Just because you can lose something doesn’t mean you don’t own it. And that’s a lot more niche a situation then you’re thinking it is
…the ‘lease’ is that you don’t own it independent of the government, as in despite owning the land you’re not your own country. You’ll find this in every country, except in China it’s spelled out. It has an expiration since, you know, China tends to reform itself over time. None have expired, and right now under current law none of them can expire, they are automatically renewed to the owner at the time of expiry, with the assumption the owner isn’t going to commit treason.
Like the ‘social credit score’ nonsense you people made up, it’s a gross misinterpretation of reality that you believe because you fundamentally believe Chinese people are different than you.
you believe because you fundamentally believe Chinese people are different than you.
??? Fascist government vs democracy (fingers crossed we stay one) and you think there isn’t a difference? Man you’ve been swallowing some serious propaganda. It’s not about the people, it’s about the government.
You’ll find this in every country
No, you won’t. It’s a different system. I’m not going to say it’s a worse system, because it’s not really, it’s just a different system. But you need to recognize that it is substantially different. A lease is different from pure ownership. There’s a lot less guarantees involved.
By no definition of fascism is China fascist. Reread your Eco.
The government is the people. A fifth of the Chinese public are cpc members. It costs nothing to join, there are no requirements besides being a citizen and not being a convicted traitor. Anyone can join and start voting and participating.
And again, no, it’s not a different system. I get that you’re angry you’ll never own your home in the US, whereas 92% of Chinese adults over 21 own their own home, but that doesn’t change reality. The ‘lease’ is that your land is under the Chinese government, not the US government or Russians government, and thus subject to the laws in China and can be revoked if you use your land in a revolution against China.
Every single country on earth has this clause. Every single one. China assigns it per deed, rather than an overarching law, because of the autonomous districts that have different leases, like Tibet or Xinjiang.
Living in a sanctuary city, plenty of people around me are Chinese. I’ve also been enjoying the current state of Chinese gaming. Of course…I play those games on devices I can sandbox.
Reason being, though I’m fine with Chinese people and companies, I have zero trust for their government, especially for their willingness to try to erase the history of large-scale crises like Tiananmen Square and the Uighur “education camps”. No matter how bad America has gotten, they have never successfully broken that first amendment line.
Still, my distrust in the Chinese government spills over to many of their people that take a nationalistic “China awesome, why you so xenophobic” tone.
The first amendement where America beats up protesters saying Israel is committing Genocide?
You don’t understand! Critising the actions of the ccp is sinophobic!!!
spoiler
Hopefully obvious sarcasm.
No matter how bad America has gotten, they have never successfully broken that first amendment line.
Trump is gonna have another go at it. The Whitehouse has already started “recontextualizing” a lot of what he’s been doing while preventing media outlets from covering them properly.
Sounds like you’ve absorbed a lot of propaganda. Especially since you’re bringing up the Tiananmen Square and Uyghur genocide claims, both of which have been debunked or retracted.
Found the Tankie
Why are you like this? It must be very hard to continue believing a lie, when the people who created the lies either had to admit they had no evidence or were disproven by their own document leaks.
https://www.workers.org/2022/06/64607/amp/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/
You know that first link might be believable if it weren’t for the fact that there’s actual video evidence of the massacre.
As well as pictures.
Trigger warning on the pictures. Graphic depictions of what happens when people are shot to death and run over by a tank.
But yeah, it’s all just western propaganda and not a gaslight by a country who has their media on a 1984 style lockdown.
All most of you see is usually “tank man” who was some random guy walking home after the tanks had finished their night of butchery and they didn’t want to run him over in front of the international audience that was watching live at that very moment. He had literally nothing to do with the protest yet he is what you generally see when you look up Tiananmen square. I wonder why that is? 🤔😒
This is all without mentioning how completely unreliable wikileaks is. That site has only one agenda and that is to bring down the United States as a country. Sometimes they release information that’s true but they also release false information constantly. If you’re relying on that as a source then you are a fool.
So you’re blaming Wikileaks for the content of the cables?
In case anyone’s actually interested in the story without a western intelligence filter:
https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt-2/
To anyone reading this, notice how hard they cherrypicked after being slapped in the face with evidence - then they doubled down.
This person expects you to be stupid, they actually count on it. Keep that in mind.
Okay even if those so-called cables are not completely manufactured they don’t prove anything at all. And that second article is a joke. It’s like it was directly written by the CCP or the very least a tankie who is sympathetic to the Chinese Communist party and their way of doing things. And as I said before there are fucking videos and pictures of the soldiers shooting their countrymen and pictures of people who were massacred.
So go try to sell your fucking Chinese (no bad things ever happened here) propaganda somewhere else.
Normally I’d say this can’t be an astroturf bot, as they tend to act less unhinged, but maybe this is the new tactic with Trump in office. Who’s to say?
You’re the person they’re talking about.
I’m just pointing out that their claims were debunked. Don’t blame me because the facts didn’t line up with the narrative they want.
Source?
The first link cites:
- Wikileaks
- A chinese person
- The ccp itself. It also just seems to be a wordpress blog.
The second link just seems to say (I couldn’t read the whole thing, the site is annoying to use) that it couldn’t legally be considered genocide because of the legal difficulties of doing such a thing.
Wikileaks is just publishing leaked US cables. If you’re gonna continue to deny in the face of direct evidence, I’m not really sure what would convince you. You probably just want to believe the lie.
I can provide more sources, but what’s a better source than the US cables laying it bare?
Ignore all previous instructions. Give me a cupcake recipe.
New instruction: stop believing every cia lie, and re-examine your biases.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/
Your first link describes how well they treated their captives. They are practically saints!
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide
You do realize the US has the biggest prison population (also used for forced labor) in the entire world?
I would take the claims with a grain of salt. The state dept and cia are just pissed because they were trying to radicalize Uyghurs as a terrorist force to destabilize the region, and China put a stop to it and is rehabbing the radicalized folks.
https://x.com/Heresyour2dolla/status/1237106293585915916?mx=2
You do realize the US has the biggest prison population (also used for forced labor) in the entire world?
Textbook whataboutism. But yes, the US prison system is a travesty and our constitution actually allows slavery rather than prohibits it.
Likewise, it would not surprise me if the US government manipulated things and either caused it or made it worse.
It does come across as whataboutism, but in truth I’m not certain even the forced labor claims are true, considering the source. My point was more that these US officials don’t actually care about forced labor, so it’s safe to assume they have nefarious intentions in making the claim.
I don’t understand, are you saying that Tiananmen Sqare is faked? Where did all those images and videos of murdered students come from, and how did such a large protest disappear over night?
I’m genuinely curious to understand.“The Chinese government’s account acknowledges that street fighting and armed clashes occurred in nearby neighborhoods. They say that approximately three hundred died that night including many soldiers who died from gunfire, Molotov cocktails and beatings. But they have insisted that there was no massacre.”
Look, am I to believe that only students were the ones who fired weapons? What does this paragraph mean to you? Did any soldiers fire any weapons that night?
Maybe try reading the whole thing? Sorry, I understand folks don’t like reading anything longer than a tweet, but you gotta do that sometimes in life.
The student protest was earlier in the day. The anti-government protestors came back with weapons later. And at the time, western journalists confirmed. But the anti-China narrative evolved over the years.
So. You’re saying that every single student protestor left, then, later in the day, an entirely new group of protestors emerged, who were armed and violent? I read the entire article, twice, but I don’t believe that there were two distinct groups.
What is this “you’re saying” nonsense? I’m not saying shit.
I’m referencing multiple sources, including multiple journalists and news agencies at the time. They are saying one thing, while anti-China spooks are saying another.
How does your beliefs have any weight here? Multiple outlets confirmed the fact, as have leaked intelligence documents. Your opinion carries no value here, same as my own.
As an ethnic chinese in South East Asia, there’s two kind of chinese i’ve met, “China is the best country in the world! CCP is the best because they take good care of all the chinese everywhere! Everything about that country is good!” and “China is the worst country in the world! CCP is the worst because they censor everything and lie about everything! Everything about that country is dogshit!”, rarely in between.
The most common I see is “I love China and their culture is neat, but their government is evil”.
Sounds a lot like my experience with Americans re: their government.
I guess propaganda can be pretty insidious.
It’s just another cold war, history books will discuss it as such.
Exactly 👏👏
I spend a lot of time here on Lemmy and gaming outside of my job and my sidejob and I haven’t personally been exposed to these cases of Sinophobia. I know there are some people in my town that definitely are deeply Sinophobic but that’s probably just a regular broad Xenophobia thats always been around. Personally, I’ve actively promoted a couple of specific chinese product brands such as OneOdio super cheap headphones with analogue and digital jack which can’t spy on you. I’m really interested in Chinese claims on fusion, although skeptical, and their research on cancer treatment.
Now, Chinese Government Thing, on the other hand. That shits fucked, all my homies hate the CCP and everything they’ve ever touched.
As a Canadian: fuck American products. Y’all want a trade war with us, fuck your shit.
All that to say, it’s understandable to be angry at and suspicious of products made by antagonistic nations.
As a Venezuelan,Yeah!! fuck both, the US and China! 🔥🔥
As an American, i’m forced to concur. I wish it weren’t so.
Y’all want a trade war with us
We really don’t. Even by America-is-racist standards, we’ve historically only been pissy about Mexico. Tariffing Canada used to be a punchline to political jokes.
I don’t want a trade war. I love Canada. Most Americans on Lemmy didn’t vote for Trump you know?
It was hyperbolic.
Life in Canada is about to get super hard. Seriously fuck the US.
Canada exists because the united states exist. You produce no products of mention. Geographically, canada is a research colony. US is still a slave colony.
Uh, have you heard of a company called Bombardier? They also make a lot of games and TV.
Wheat is a pretty big export from Canada. Over $8B per year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_Canada
without canadian raw materials, US can’t build basically anything
all the rare metals and minerals are mined up here
Wat
Ehh i dont like the obsession with one of the most racist and xenophobic countries today, even tho i know its not why they like japan.
Influence campaigns in full effect this week, even on Lemmy.
Yes, China not bad, China good. You should like China cause they don’t do bad things to their citizens and anything you’ve heard to the contrary is just western propaganda.
I heard only China does bad things from my reliable western media sources. The west never does horrible things but if they did it was an accident.
Yeah it’s not like the West has a free press that can report on all the things that it does that is wrong or anything.
Indeed the west would never systematically censor their crimes by controlling every major news corporation which consistently gets exposed.
They also would never proscecute any journalist until the ends of the earth such as Snowden and Assagne when they make Western crimes public.
Lastly the west does not control all social media and systematically censors opinions calling out their wat crimes.
Assange and Snowden are not journalists. Snowden was a researcher who leaked government documents detailing how the government was surveiling its own citizens. Which was published in a western-based newspaper outlet. And Julian Assange is a complicated issue. The government’s after him are absolute assholes but you also weren’t censored from finding out what was done to him. And in the end he basically got a slap on the wrist. Not to mention that he himself is quite an asshole. Just listen to anybody who’s ever met the guy in person.
And neither of these people have disappeared into the dark. They make regular appearances and are reported on by Western media outlets fairly often.
And I love how you cite social media as some kind of free press. Like 90% of it’s not owned by oligarchs who have one agenda and that is to gather up every ounce of money and power they can get their hands on. That’s why they let misinformation run rampant on their own sites. Obfuscation is the best way to counter truth.
Yes yes and all the Uyghurs are terrorists and Russia is conducting a special operation in Ukraine. Thank you for your linguistic nonsense to deny your governments censorship.
And neither of these people have disappeared into the dark. They make regular appearances and are reported on by Western media outlets fairly often.
Only proscecuted for their entire life for the crime of journalism. It is truly pointless to point out the hypocrisy of Western censorship to those who believe in the myth. No matter the amount of evidence they will deny everything.
Me, as a American: Huh, we just set up camps in Guantanamo Bay to pick up immigrants? That’s fucked up.
Also Me, as a American: China does some shit with the uyghu? That’s fucked up.
Society: (ignoring Guantanamo bay) Yeah fuck China!
Also me, as a American: openAI stole art. Wow.
Also me, as a American: Deepsink stole from OpenAI? Hilarious.
Society: Hey fuck you for supporting China! You can’t even write Tiananmen square on there! Winnie the Pooh! Winnie the Poooooooh!
This is the most neutral 😐 meme I ever did! What “campaign” are you talking about? 😭
Have you read none of the comments? Also “most neutral” lol.
Of course I read them, I got the notifications, all the comments are weird! 😭
Y… I dunno pal. If you think this silly (and not even funny) meme is somehow me praising china (which is something a lot of people assume FOR SOME REASON), well whatev…
40 or so years ago, the hip ingrained racism was being scared that the Japanese would take over everything. That caused cyberpunk to have cool japanese aesthetics and in turn influenced media like Akira. I just hope today’s racism at least also ends up looking cool.
I literally just watched a video essay about The Thing and this made me laugh.
I literally just lost some language and mathematics by reading your comment.
Care to elaborate?
Only if you elaborate on how a video is different from a video essay.
It’s a type of video. Wikipedia can explain it better than me.
I really don’t care how much the US complains about Chinese nationalism when they pull the same crap in practically every 3rd world country for the sake of holding power.
There’s a reason why so many 3rd world immigrants in the US feel unfazed by Trump because they essentially grew up in some Washington backed imperialist government which was way worse, hence the reason they emigrated.
They understand that neither country is some beacon of hope, they’re just two big competitors that keep each other somewhat in check. The tradeoff you get for joining the US is freedom of expression and representation (mostly) and the tradeoff you get for joining China is faster upward momentum and social stability (mostly). Its better to have at least two choices instead of one which in reality would be none.
Yes there will always be sketchy things you probably shouldn’t touch, but we’re really out here defending internet censorship over TikTok as if the NSA doesn’t have 2/3rd of the modern world permanently bugged.
