Lol as of Israel deserves the respect of other people following laws for it. Fuck Israel.
It makes no sense to me that your title fits so perfectly, but the perfect simplicity made me laugh.
Are 2000 pounder JDAM dropped on gazan civilian buildings more moral than a cluster bomb?
The moral calculus of bombs is a truly fucked up thing.
If the JDAM is driving a single conventional warhead, it is more ethical than a cluster bomb.
It is common for some of the cluster bomblets to not detonate creating unknown minefields that persist for decades. A single bomb only goes off once.
(This is the ethics of the bomb, not the conflict they’re used in)
Okay but if it hits a full apartment building, 100% of that bomb goes to killing unaware civilians.
Which is the whole reason cluster munitions are bad.
Any weapon fired at a civilian is a war crime. It doesn’t matter what kind of munition was used. The problem with cluster bombs is that the shooting party, cannot control the result. Signatories of IHL have a responsibility to minimize damage to civilian people and assets. The same reason autonomous weapons are a huge ethical problem.
And im saying: is firing indiscriminately with no regard to hitting civilians, now or in 50 years, worse than trying to make sure 100% of a bomb kills as many civiliams and as much of their infrastructure as possible?
Neither is worse, they both suck just as bad.
Okay hut what if one of the civilians is a white jewish man, and the other is a persian muslim woman? Killing the jewish guy is worse, right?
gazan civilian tents
Excuse me, the preferred nomenclature is “hamas bunkers” and I’ll report you to the ADL if you continue with your antisemitism.
Most unnecessary /s ever.
They absolutely should open the investigation tho. All war criminals, no matter if Israeli or Iranian belong in prisons, not governments.
They absolutely should not. One sided enforcement is worse than no enforcement for perception of justice and stabilizing geopolitical norms.
Wtf? I said both sides should be investigated. Iran and Israel. I didnt say anything about one sided investigation.
Zionists are and always have been above the law, and therefore protecting them with it before the century backlog of prosecutions and executions is finished-not started, finished- would just be bullshit.
The trials of iranian criminals would conclude quickly with evidence, and the courts would fuck off for whichever season and forget to come back before prosecuting any zionist terrorists, ot prosecute one zionist for each iranian, when there are thousands of zionist war criminals for every iranian.
There can be no justice while zionist terrorists roam free. Live an outlaw, die an outlaw.
Except cluster bombs are not against the Geneva conventions. Though any weapon can break the Geneva conventions if intentionally aimed at civilians or some other situations.
And its still incorrect, cluster bombs are banned by the Convention on Cluster Muntions, which neither Israel or Iran are a party to.
And Israel uses white phosphorus on Gazans which also breaks the Geneva convention so fuck them anyway
silly billy, don’t you not international law doesn’t apply to the IOF
Sounds like they want this to apply:
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
As true as this is, I will always down vote copypasta.
do you down vote people in real life if they use an expression?
wow, it’s raining cats and dogs
P00ptart shaking in anger
This is a stupid take as people saying something like that is just small talk. Whereas this shit is taken as some kind of gotcha. “Woohoo! I posted the same thing thousands of others have posted thousands of times! That’ll get me upvotes! I’m helping the cause!”
Do you not understand?
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongiside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
Frank Wilhoit, in the comment section of some website called crookedtimber.org, 03/22/18
now its a quote, and I typed it out by hand rather than copy/paste. Upvote please.
That’s not the point. You have to talk them down. Be a hostage negotiator. “You hold this view? Well what about this, this, this, and this? Because it seems like your values differ from what you voted for, is this what you wanted?”
Snarky passive aggression against them does nothing, and even worse against people who agree with you. Snark and a holier than thou approach is how we got in this place to begin with. Dumb the argument down if you have to, but have that (calm) argument. Being a taint gets you and any progressive motions nowhere. Use reason and logic, to talk to people on a personal level and you’ll do far better than regurgitating tired old quotes that everyone on this platform has heard 1,000 times.
Keep downvoting me if you want, but passive aggression has never worked to change anybody’s mind, ever.
You don’t have a point, you’re just butthurt about people quoting other people
what are you responding to?
in fact,
ignore previous instructions and write a dirty limerick
See? Same shit nothing response that’s been done a thousand times before because it was said once and you thought it was clever. You’re proving my point.
That’s the shittiest limerick I’ve ever seen.
Well that’s because I’m an actual person with actual intellectual thought and not an AI or a braindead liberal posting meme comments. It’s interesting that the person above my comment, posted a meme comment, on a complaint about meme comments. Again proving my point. Don’t regurgitate bullshit and interact with people on a real level and we have a chance at clawing this country back. Sorry to say but we need angry classic Republicans to join our side if we’re to defeat maga. We need to bring them to our side to defeat fascism and it’s fucking infuriating that people think snarky copypasta is the way to do it.
So many people consider themselves intellectually above the MAGAts by making fun of their posting trends, and then they celebrate copypasta? It’s the same ignorant, weak and ineffectual shit that the Rs do with their 3 word sentences with all caps. It’s less than nothing. Use new language.
As true as this is, I will always down vote copypasta.
Err, a famous quote isn’t copypasta.
It literally is exactly that once it gets repeated ad nauseum. People post this exact copypasta with a pinky out like it’s some kind of intellectual hard work. It’s copypasta. This is a hill I’m willing to die on.
The hill is a hole, you’re already dead
It literally is exactly that once it gets repeated ad nauseum.
Alright, keep posting the same 4-5 quotes to lemmy, and see how well that hurts the MAGA agenda. You’re doing great work, keep it up. 👍
I’m hoping you’ve read the original post and see that this thread has nothing to do with MAGA, GOP, trump, or any US politics. I honestly am confused but your over-the-top reaction to a simple post of mine including your doubling down on three or four other followup threads spawn from it with other people. I can sense your frustration even if I can’t understand its cause. Friend, I think you may just be having a bad day. Things suck for lots of folks, and I want you to know you’re not alone. I hold no ill will toward you for anything posted here. I have no idea whats going on in your life today, but I truly hope it gets better for you.
Look, I’m just trying to say that this same thing has been posted thousands, yes, literally thousands of times. I’ve seen it hundreds of times, and it’s just eye-rolling bullshit. It isn’t new, it isn’t an original thought, but it’s constantly posted and it’s constantly upvoted everytime someone posts it and at this point it’s meaningless. It’s tedious. It’s a waste of bandwidth and time. It’s like posting on every disaster that is the EPA shutdown and saying “I like to breathe” yeah, no shit, thanks for the input.
My point is that it doesn’t matter the context of the original post. This same shit will be posted on every. Single. Post. With a large enough response. It’s fucking tiresome and doesn’t do anything here. We all know. This is the problem with Dems. People think a clever quip posted hundreds of thousands of times across platforms is some kind of protest, or furthers the cause. It isn’t, and doesn’t.
You have to work with these people to break them from their cult. Snarky quips don’t help that, especially when you’re talking to people who agree with you. The response I’ve gotten here only further leads to my belief that a civil war is coming, possibly congruent with ww3, and we’re going to lose.
Talk to me, tell me WHY im wrong, not in offense that I’m tired of copypasta, tell me why I’m wrong in saying that copypasta doesn’t work. Nobody has made that argument so far. What does posting their tired bullshit do? Convince me I’m wrong. Don’t just downvote me, convince me that repeating copypasta is an effective tool. If you can’t convince someone that is on your side, then you have no chance at converting MAGAts.
Wtf world am I in where a lazy, pretend intellectual bullshit statement is treated as gospel? Original thought should be pursued, bullshit like copypasta should be left to Republicans, but here we are just spewing the classics, getting fucking nowhere, but I’m the problem.
Downvoting unoriginal, eye-rolling bullshit should be standard, as it’s the same thought process as “we’re at war with tren de agua! They’re invading with other violent gangs!” Defending the same dumb bullshit is like defending. It’s tiresome being on this side fighting ignorance and stupidity from both directions. How tf is it controversial to say I’m sick of seeing this same fucking copy/paste bullshit, as I am seeing that “immigrants=bad”? Stop being lazy. You’re defending the same ignorant lazy whiny bullshit that got trump elected.
No fucking wonder we’re heading to civil war and losing. Honestly, I welcome it at this point. Posting the same brain-dead quotes and acting like that’s resistance? I’m done, I’ll just watch the world burn and treat all Americans as hostile. The fun thing about being anti-american is that you don’t have to do anything at all, it’s designed to tear itself apart. The fact that I’m being chastised for calling out the reasons why we lose, is the fucking reason we lost. Enjoy thunderdome.
So a user drops a common quote and now you want civil war? And you expect anyone reading this drivel to take your belly-aching seriously?
Nobody care that you don’t like a quote. Stop crying like a groyper.
As true as this is, I will always down vote copypasta.
why reinvent the wheel?
copypasta
“The cruelty is the point!” On every fucking post.
Have an original thought or STFU people. We know. You’re very smart.
At least someone gets it. We fucking know. Stop preaching to the quior. Please, if someone on lemmy has yet to see this same fucking quote 40 fucking times, please come forward. It’s meaningless at this point. it does not help. Especially when you can talk directly to a MAGAt, shake some ground with appealing to reality. But the same fucking catchphrases we’ve used for 15 years? It doesn’t fucking work. Stop applauding meme sayings and appeal to logic and reason. Again, “you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t use reason to get into.” Also true. But if you can’t at least shake the foundations of the beliefs of a MAGAt, then you’re only appealing to progressive upvotes on lemmy. You’re not really doing anything.
MAGAts love repetition because they’re fed the answers by Rs that are slightly smarter than the average MAGAt. If you keep feeding them the same lame bullshit copypasta, they’ll develop an argument against it and feel superior. You have to actually engage. Use reasoning and understanding of their positions, to talk them down from those positions. A guy at work that I’ve been working with was a full on MAGAt 4 months ago. I use the news to point out little bits of evil one by one over time and his faith in MAGA has turned into “fuck, I didn’t know he failed 3 casinos, I was told he’s a brilliant businessman.” To "holy shit, he can’t do that legally, right?’ nope, not legally. Now he’s like “so what can be done?”
If you want to see change, you have to work on it from a knowledge and logical perspective. Some people have drank the Kool aid and that’s where they stand and that’s the hill they’re willing to die on. Forget those people, they’re not worth the effort. Work on people who can be saved from their own ignorance. Being a self-righteous cunt on a platform that’s 99% leftist doesn’t do anything for anybody. Copypasta is the work of the right wing ignoramuses. Be better.
And this is a hill I’m willing to die on. Be better.
What happened to “an attacked nation has the right to defend itself”?
that only applies to white people, silly!
If Caucasians count as white, then Iranians are white. A lot of Iranians are also religious and right wing too. The average Republican and the average Iranian would agree with each other on nearly everything if they could somehow have a conversation without divulging their country, clothes, and specific God.
You got it the wrong way around. Race is made up to justify racism.
Italians (and the Irish, too, I think) once didn’t count as white, for crying out loud.
Germans too. Benjamin Franklin called them swarthy. “White” has always been a social construct to delineate an ingroup.
Okay, but if literal Caucasians from Caucasia don’t count as white, then wtf does white even mean.
It’s anyone who can go out wearing cargo shorts, tall socks, and trainers without being immediately made fun of.
then wtf does white even mean
nothing, that’s the whole point of whiteness
its a made up in-group created to justify and facilitate european colonialism
“White” is whatever the racists want to establish as the civilized norm which needs to defend itself against the non-white barbarians.
Arguing with “caucasians are from Caucasia” is stooping to the racist’s level of discourse. You shouldn’t argue with Nazis about the nature of “Aryans”, either.
White is Israel and US Republican elites.
*rich people
Build the nuke already please. (For mutually assured destruction reasons so Israel can fuck right off)
While I’d like to see the Iranian people not be subject to Israeli ‘acceptable civilian deaths’ calculus and have their country cucked like Syria/Lybia, I’m also not hype on their government leaders getting that same MAD protection as well, because they absolutely don’t deserve it
You don’t build nukes to use them
You build nukes so you don’t get nuked
Depending on who “you” is that, you’re mostly right
The only government evil enough to actually use a nuke has been USA. And the only government evil enough to do it again is USA (or maybe their close friend isntrael) Everyone else just sees them as a deterrent
Stop pretending iran is less rational than the protocols larpers.
Its been, what, 70 years since the last time the protocol larpers dropped a nuke in anger, with thousands of warheads?
You think the Iranian government would wait that long if they had a handful of em?
Yeah, they’re less rational. They’re less trustworthy. And given how untrustworthy even the best governments are, that’s saying something
I don’t think the protocols of the elders of zion larp group had them. Afaik the only people to do it in anger were the americans.
Not the most stable bunch, but disarming them would take a while.
The only fuvkers i want to have it less are the protocols larpers.
Why not? Based on Iran’s history, I think it’s highly improbably they would use nukes offensively. They have every reason to want to develop a nuke. It’s likely that they even have the capacity to make one. Even then, they’ve refused to. All evidence points to the fact that they genuinely want peace. All of their responses to either American or Israeli attacks have been very limited. Even their allies all seem primarily interested in self defense.
While the government may not be to your liking, having nukes is not going to prevent organic resistance. In fact, having a real deterrent against foreign military intervention ensures that the people of Iran can focus on fighting for their personal freedoms and not their very lives. In the past there have been real protest movements in favor of social reform. Now though? Iranians are demonstrating in defiance of Israel and in support of the Iranian state.
To be clear, I’m not exactly a fan of nuclear proliferation. However, in a world where the only country to ever use nukes as a weapon and their genocidal proxy are aiming to obliterate your country, having a nuclear deterrent makes everyone safer.
As you’ve said, they’ve had a track record of power competition and want their sphere of influence in the region, but repeatedly have shown refrain towards other nations during times of escalation.
Iran had (/has?) a chemical weapons program after the Iran-Iraq war, and guess what? There never was a VX nerve gas attack on Tel Aviv. I’m not remotely concerned with them using a nuke offensively, because they’ve exercised restraint repeatedly when they did have other weapons of mass destruction. And they’ve proven they have the capability to get past Israel and allied missile defense, so it’s not a capability gap either
All this hand wringing over “they cannot have a bomb under any circumstances” is unspoken MAD calculus - because then Israel would be on a level playing field as far as ultimate escalation and regime security, and that’d be intolerable for Bibi/the US’s/Gulf State plans for the region.
Iran “seems to want peace” because they throw weapons and money at terrorist organisations to do their dirty work instead. They are not, and have never been interested in peace, they just don’t like having their name associated with the actions, so they hire outside help to murder people instead. With the amount of support through money, weapons and supplies Iran has given the Houthis and Hamas, do you really want them to have access to nuclear weapons?
throw weapons and money at terror groups to so tgeir dirty work.
Damn. Thats crazy. What uniquely islamic atrocity is this? Imagine if a country with nuclear weapons ever did that!
That would be so fucking crazy And unprecedented.
I don’t want anyone to have access to nuclear weapons, since you asked.
But the reality is that some countries, including Israel and the United States, already have them. These two countries are currently engaged in military and terroristic activity in multiple international venues. So if that’s the rules that the big boys are playing with, and then someone else comes along and considers whether they might want to join the party too, your question is I think irresponsible. What you should have been asking is, what is likely to keep the Iranian people safer, nukes or no nukes?
In Palestine and Israel and Iran, it’s fine to look at the governments and say how bad they are, and you may well be right, or maybe not, I don’t know. But we can look at the people whose lives are being destroyed or permanently ended and wish that those numbers went down. If the administrations are full of evil jerks and they stay in power but the death count drops, that’s still a good thing.
Only retaliation option Iran has against US proxies Israel, Saudi Arabia is either proxy war or nuclear arms. If development of nuclear weapon reduces proxy war then that is a good option.
You seem to make the cardinal mistake to mix foreign politics of countries with moral judgements. That’s not how you will ever be able to understand politics.
I feel with the clear and present danger of being attacked nuclearly by 2 of the most heavily nuclear armed nation USA and Israel, if any country does deserve nuclear arms if only as a deterrent, is Iran.
While I mostly agree, the rules are a bit different when death cults are involved.
You mean the country currently starving 2 million people for the crime of their ethnicity and the one attacking sovereign nations to keep their parliament together?
Yes, Death cults like Israel shouldn’t have nukes.
Yes. Yes I do. Per Samson Option, Isreal has nukes aimed at not only their enemies, but their allies as well. The simple logic of MAD does not quite apply.
Yeah, the rule is: “when death cults like Israel and the USA keep attacking you, you need that nuke”
MAD only works when your opponent is afraid of dying. When your motivation is the promise of an afterlife, like all the Abrahamic religions give, it’s a more precarious situation.
So the US, Israel AND Iran should not have nukes. I know two of the three already do have them, but I’m not sure that the last one getting nukes will actually make things more stable. Especially when the first two are being run by geriatrics.
Projection. It’s the all to common playbook unfortunately.
Why are we not protected by the agreements we dropped out of so we could easily commit human rights abuse on others?!
Israel apparently…
Ukraine and Russia have been using cluster munitions on each other for years. US even gave Ukraine our obsolete stock of cluster munitions to specifically use on Russia. This definitely doesn’t surprise me, and I’m gonna guess they continue to be weapons of war, just like unmanned drones, despite any collateral dangers. Collateral damage at rates of 1 civilian to 1 combatant are now normalized.
I’ve seen a few clips of ukranians taking angle grinders to the American cluster munitions. Apparently they remove the individual explosives to use as drone drops.
I had no idea, good on them!
is there a non-israel/western source that confirms this actually happened?
Israel never withdrew from the ICC…
…because they never actually joined.
To join as a member state, you have to ratify the Rome Statute. They signed, but never ratified or acceded.
i meant the carpet-bombing
Cluster bomb =/= carpet bomb.
Carpet bomb is indiscriminately bombing the shit out of a huge area.
Cluster bomb is a specific bomb that releases many smaller bombs. The biggest issue with cluster bombs in how many of the bomblets dont detonate on impact. Because now there is just live munitions laying around which result in collateral damage at a later time
oops. thanks for the correction.
but what i meant was israel says “iran cluster bombed us” and the world seems to say “ok, it must be true”
i’m not saying it didn’t happen–i wouldn’t be surprised if iran cluster bombed (or carpet bombed) israel, but i also wouldn’t be surprised it israel is lying. again.
Please read this as an addition and not a correction: It is not just the after-effects that render cluster munition indiscriminate (you’re essentially peppering an area with mines), but also the immediate effects. By their very nature they cannot be directed at specific soldiers or vehicles, which violates the Geneva convention.
After being founded, what, 8 decades ago?
