Chapter 2 is where the interesting stuff is, they assessed people for misogynistic attitudes, and also political ones they deem extreme. They classify left wing extremism as indicated by:
The rich will not give up their wealth easily. Organised violence, including against people, is the only way to make things fair for everyone.
Capitalism is ruining the world and should be resisted with violence
Without getting distracted by a discussion of the um curious decision to classify that in the same way as beliefs like murdering people who wont fuck me is a cool and good I think it’s an interesting result.
Misogyny in left-wing spaces is real, and this survey indicates it’s not automatically less prevalent than in right wing spaces (although particular attitudes may differ). Despite shit like patriarchy and control of women being recognised as a problematic root of oppression by many prominent theorists (e.g. engles on the origin of class relations).
Something I think we should all think about.
Also at least Aussie gen z’ers seem a bit fucking cooked here, how do boomers have better attitudes about forcing sex on your wife than gen z women? wat is going on? I wonder if some of this can be explained through inexperience, but there is a stark difference between older and younger people. Also much less than between men and women than I would have expected.
Why are we failing to reach kids compared to the right wing here?
We don’t reach kids because there is an entire system dedicated to making sure people develop reactionary beliefs
Every time people on the Left try to gain a popular front, the system is immediately used against us
Even someone like Hasan, who is not even close to being Marxist, is immediately targeted and slammed with the force of a tsunami
Even someone who is just doing their job to protect capitalism is targeted, it is quite an irrational system. Politicians like Roosevelt were almost couped, Mehdi Hasan was fired for doing his job as the fourth branch of the liberal govt, these people save capitalism by being beast tamers and leasing this monster again but capitalism being the monster it is, tries to eat its saviours.
I was hoping to find fuller crosstabs in the study. Maybe they’re around somewhere, but from what I’ve read so far I haven’t found quite what I’m looking for: comparisons on agreements with the different categories of violent extremism. In particular, the first “extreme left” belief:
The rich will not give up their wealth easily. Organised violence, including against people, is the only way to make things fair for everyone.
This has proven, IMO, to be a broadly popular belief. The clearest example to point to doesn’t meet their “organised” criteria, but I would guess most respondents didn’t actually make that distinction. Example: Luigi, who is not a leftist and saw extremely broad support across the political spectrum.
Including the second belief:
Capitalism is ruining the world and should be resisted with violence
Might cut things down a bit, but it’s easy enough for capitalists to insert an unstated “crony” ahead of it, and suddenly you can have a large number of violent “leftists” who are also deeply misogynistic. With a breakdown of how many people also agreed with, say, the right wing beliefs, it would be easier to see how well their questions actually identify leftists.
That said, misogyny is clearly a problem in leftists spaces. Hexbear is proof.
I can’t find where the full data are published, potentially you need to contact the author.
Given some of the tabulated data differences though, they clearly are capturing distinct groups, the categories don’t look like ridiculous p-hacking, and in general the broader trend is that attitudes towards the legitimacy of violence in political struggle are strong indicators of misogynistic attitudes.
This study makes me think we need to be more militant about rejecting misogyny as it is likely that many people will carry horrible beliefs.
That said, misogyny is clearly a problem in leftists spaces. Hexbear is proof.
I may have ulterior motives for posting it on this instance.
I may have ulterior motives for posting it on this instance.
Only the best ulterior motives
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for a very long time mainstream (i.e. liberal, white) feminists only came with a list of what not to do and that is incomplete and unhelpful unless your vision of protecting young straight women from their peers is to paralyze the reachable cohort and do nothing at all to reach or change the young men who only hear from PUA/manosphere chuds.
excusing zero of his faults, dan savage actually kinda met the moment 20+ years ago but i can’t in good conscience recommend him to a nephew or younger cousin anymore and that’s been the case for a while.
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At the risk of being snarky, i could swear even liberal, white feminists have told men what they expect them to do, back in the day even they had demands like “spend more time with your kids” or “don’t always let your wife do the dishes” or “equal pay for equal work.” Granted, i have to guess what you mean with your complaint about feminism being “incomplete and unhelpful”, so maybe you expect women to write a complete protocol for men on how to flirt without being sex pests or something like that.
i was speaking to dating advice for like 14-early 20s year olds, which those three do not apply very much now do they?
It is … interesting that it’s the task of feminists to single-handedly define fo
are you on some “there are no male feminists” thing? that’s fine but i would include somebody like PZ Myers in the “only don’ts” crowd. Fred Rogers wasn’t talking to teens. If any of the alleged non-toxic masculinity role models had anything to say on the subject it wasn’t getting any reach in the era before we stopped calling it a “weblog” instead of a blog.
But i forgot that patriarchy is an extractive system that unloads unprofitable labor on women so we do it for free. So of course it is up to us to reinvent masculinity.
damn you just medaled in the olympic long jump.
Maybe establishing what men shouldn’t do is more important to me because it directly relates to my security and sexual autonomy
no argument here, i’ve said before that it’s understandable why that was the predominant discourse and it’s absolutely right to have that priority. but once someone has mastered the do nots, they’re left not knowing what to do and that leaves the vacuum.
part of the problem is that these guys are asking an impossible question, but we need to offer an alternative otherwise there’s no defense against the andrews taint.
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yeah, a lot of that is easier said than done. Narrowing your pool to a tiny subgroup isn’t a good way to meet more people, my hard line now is masking in indoor places and it’s been years since i’ve even laid eyes on someone of any gender, let alone any preferences or propriety like not hitting on people at their job.
tbh lasting friendships are probably harder than romance. you spend so much more time with a partner and on three chat messages once a month you’ll die of old age before building anything.
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i really did mean romance, not hookup. if you’re upfront about things being a date even if you’re not trying to fuck after the first one, it still comes with the implication that you’re (potentially, anyway) much more invested in maintaining a relationship. Compare that to the friends i’ve seen once or twice a week for several years and then disappear forever when somebody moves or loses interest in the common hobby.
or if you want to say those weren’t friends, then i’ve literally never had a friend who wasn’t also a partner and i’d stand by my musing.
excusing zero of his faults, dan savage actually kinda met the moment 20+ years ago but i can’t in good conscience recommend him to a nephew or younger cousin anymore and that’s been the case for a while.
OOTL, what happened with Dan Savage to make him problematic?
i don’t think there was a specific scandal but he falls short on a bunch of stuff and he was going on bill maher’s show a lot. there’s some tumblr that was obsessively keeping track of every slight but i don’t have time for that shit.
Also at least Aussie gen z’ers seem a bit fucking cooked here, how do boomers have better attitudes about forcing sex on your wife than gen z women? wat is going on? I wonder if some of this can be explained through inexperience, but there is a stark difference between older and younger people.
I think with Gen Z, we’re seeing a reversal of the old “you start out leftist, but then you get to the real world and get more conservative” trope. The prevalence of the manosphere for young men and trad wife grifters for young women creates this romanticized, unrealistic view of traditional gender roles. It’s not until they get to the “real world” and reality smacks them in the face that no one is impressed by “alpha” male showboating, and that “traditional” men are narcissistic users and not benevolent father figures, respectively.
EDIT: I noticed that when it came to respondents agreeing with the violent extremist statements, they let them pick multiple, and the totals given was way over 100% which means there had to have been a lot that agreed with multiple violent extremist statements. I’d be very curious to see with the ones who agreed with misogynistic statements and multiple violent extremist statements including the left wing option, which other extremist statements they agreed with.
The report certainly fingers manosphere stuff and yet there’s always been a market for propaganda for men and women.
They don’t explain how it’s different, and I’m not sure anyone has a satisfactory explanation for why it’s supposed to be so much radicalising than shitty magazines/books/tv shows/gentlemen’s clubs etc used to be.
Also regular exposure to manosphere stuff as self reported is lower than misogyny, and what about left wingers? How many left wingers are watching Tate etc?
They don’t explain how it’s different, and I’m not sure anyone has a satisfactory explanation for why it’s supposed to be so much radicalising than shitty magazines/books/tv shows/gentlemen’s clubs etc used to be.
I think the traditional modes for those sort of misogynistic messages became dated and stale. Like, the big voice for that in the 90’s and early aughts was Rush Limbaugh, talk radio. The youth are not going to be reached by talk radio. So once guys like Bannon figured out there was this youth demo they could reach, they started using more modern methods. Particularly, the parasocial nature of a lot of the platforms the manosphere is on creates the feeling in these young men that they’re getting advice from an older, more experienced friend rather than getting a corporate media message.
Also regular exposure to manosphere stuff as self reported is lower than misogyny
That’s the tricky thing about the manosphere, the line between the “hit the gym, read a book” messaging and the red/blackpill stuff is hazy. So you get men who engage with it but never filter down to the ugly level, or just willfully ignore it when an influencer does it.
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Everything you wrote is great. I appreciate you putting words to this as it is something that I have struggled with more generally, especially being in this community that is paying on various levels of irony over the years.
i often wonder how many of us are aware how fucking horrifying that realization actually is. I grew up in a violent place. As a girl who had femininity literally beaten out of her, i’ve been in a fair share of fights. And i hated every single one of them, no matter if i “won” or not. Few things feel more disgusting than when the adrenaline wears off and you’re still pumped full of cortisol and you feel the blood dripping and the red mist around you recedes again. That violence is necessary in some situations does not change it is horrible.
There is a difference between accepting violence as a necessary evil and yearning for an excuse to be a mass murderer. That line can get real blurry when you’re radicalizing.
💯
I had a rough childhood and while I wouldn’t wish it on anyone I do wonder if some exposure to what it actually feels like to be jolting in and out of consciousness while a group of people kick you might make people a little more cautious about increasing the amount of pain and suffering in the world.
This is a Zionist Liberal Centrist study
Yeah ofc they don’t talk about the pervasive and completely normalized violence of capitalism, zionism, patriarchy, etc.
Maybe people are misogynist because that’s completely normal and acceptable in their society?
also peep the sections on “anti-semitism” in the “extreme left”
it’s just more free palestine = anti-semitism slop for the zionists. If that’s how loose their definitions are, they probably rank disliking Hillary or Kamala as misogynist
Another case of the environment normalising certain actions regardless of peoples true beliefs. We live in a patriarchal society where violence against socially acceptable targets is the norm.
Never underestimate how much the fear of not being normal hijacks logic and how much that dog eat dog mindset is subconsciously drummed into us. Most people don’t even think about why they do it, they just smell the opportunity to punch down and bite in like an animal acting on instinct.
Also in my opinion we are failing to reach as many people now because the same algorithms and propaganda techniques that used to only target people that consumed legacy news, Youtube and Facebook is now the entire media landscape. Everywhere people get information from has regressed back to a completely controlled media landscape. Everyone is now your racist grandpa that only watches Fox News because every media space pushes thay style of slop. Gen Z aren’t kids anymore and I don’t take much stock in generational statistics that profile age groups, but if I were to stereotype, I would say that being the first generation to grow up being constantly watched has possibly made them more susceptible to enforcing social norms, so under our fucked up society that would include violent patriarchal ones. The younger you are, the more likely you are to be afraid of being an outcast. But honestly this is a problem hitting every generation and every creed because we are all susceptible to propaganda.
Sorry at work so oneliner. Because the ruling ideology is the rulers ideology.
There is an untapped market in just mocking misogynists as being Neanderthals.
“Ooga booga. Grug bigger than grugella, Grug smash puny grugella. So grug better than grugella in every way! Grugella worship Grug or Grug smash you to forever sleep!”
