Raising kids these days must be a real minefield with all this toxic culture being so accessible.
Fundamentalist religion is at the top of the toxic culture, and it has been around since before the incel term.
Anyone offering easy answers to complex questions should be suspect. And that does largely incriminate all religious groups around the world. They often espouse seemingly decent and benign ideologies. But unfortunately the mindset that latches on to those things, idealogues; are the danger. Even if the ideology themselves aren’t necessarily.
They often espouse seemingly decent and benign ideologies.
Sometimes they are so conditioned that they don’t even think of their bigotry as bigotry.
I think organized religion fills their heads with problematic ideas about gender roles.
Heh, while religion isn’t required for that. It’s impossible to argue that it doesn’t help with it. Putting faith in anything and turning off critical thinking is always a recipe for disaster.
Pretty sure the old testament gives wives more authority in the community and in the household than what our current government is aiming for.
Fucking hell there are instructions for abortifactants in the OT
Don’t pin this on religion, this is purely the bias of petty men coloring their interpretations.
We had an easy answer - a decent paying job that offered a decent lifestyle and a hope for a better future but the rich took it away.
Usually, it’s just another term for the same thing, I would say.
And most parents are too lazy or too tired to police their children
The kids are also at school half the day or more, we’re trying to teach and reinforce critical thinking as much as possible with our son. And I’m trying to show him that there are lots of ways to solve problems when examples arise.
But I’m also a dad that both fixes the cars and cooks the dinners and solders the electronics and sows on the buttons. He’s a smart kid, and a contrarian like his folks, so I hope he’s gonna be ok.
If I choose to have children, they’ll be home-schooled, and their internet use will be entirely supervised until they’re older. None of this, hand-a-toddler-a-tablet nonsense.
lol no one raises kids these days, they leave that to youtube
How can we help them make more friends? How can we get them involved in real-world activities that will diminish their time spent online?
By locking them into suburban houses with no places to go without being driven by their parents, until they’re old enough to drive. 🇺🇸🇨🇦
And then making cars impossibly expensive, teenage boys uninsurable as drivers, wages hilariously low, and reliable transportation a prerequisite for employment.
Those profits aren’t going to make themselves!
It was never gonna work out forever. Capitalism is really young and has never really been sustainable.
I used to go to school by bike with friends, nowadays there is car traffic congestion to drop off kids at school
In the 2000s my elementary-school step-son wasn’t allowed to walk, bike or skate to school. Also, they didn’t get to keep a locker. Fuck teaching personal responsibility! 6-yo children, bent double with giant backpacks. All they needed were coolie hats to complete the slave motiff. All in all just a nother brick in the wall.
Howany cases of scoliosis did that make. No really that nearly happned to my brothers when he wasin school. I was lucky and had lockers.
Yeah. Not to mention how much time, effort and money it takes for parents to shuttle kids around to create some semblance of social life. The more difficult it is, the fewer people do it. Growing up in commie blocks, it was impossible to go out the entrance and not bump into some kids playing. You’d go on the balcony and get yelled to come down by some kids outside. We walked alone to school since kindergarten. There were multitudes of small local stores to buy yourself a treat and share it with the other kids. Even the least attentive parents had their kids get socially functional by society. This sort of thing is possible in some places in North America but I think it’s the exception rather than the norm.
The middle school I went to in the 90’s had bike racks. They were old and corroded, most were kinda shoved to the side. I never once saw a bike locked to them, and I got the feeling that you’d get in trouble if you did.
That school was about 60 years old, and was once the town high school, it was in amongst the residential side of town. They opened a new middle school out on commercial land back behind the Best Buy out on the stroad that’s only known by its US route number. They installed no bike racks there.
Sooooo… when are we gonna admit that men’s mental health is unfortunaly heavily tied to their career prospects?
No, not yet?
Okay I’ll keep waiting.
sigh
…
It’s capitalism.
Men’s well being wouldn’t be tied to career prospects if it weren’t for the rat race we are all brainwashed into since birth that is capitalism.
You have worth as a human beyond your capacity to produce profit.
Yeah and the reason young men are finding it hard to have real life friends and end up on uncle forums is because we lost most of our “third spaces” thanks to them not making money and shutting down or being underfunded or closed if they were publicly owned.
Ontop of this the constant algorithms that push specific topics to people over and over due to it keeping them on the platform and therefore generates income.
It does feel like 75% of this problem could be fixed by stopping corporate greed and fixing our local communities as whole.
I went to a Humans vs. Zombies Nerf war at a university campus a few weeks ago. A couple hundred people, real strong mix of men, women, and others. A healthy mingling of people who were clearly gun hobby adjacent and a lot of openly queer folk, which I think is really quite encouraging to see. Everyone had a good time, no issues the whole day. Good vibes all around.
At the end of the event, the student organizers tearfully announced that the school administration had decided to ban all blaster events on campus going forward. Fuck us all for trying to have a healthy good time, right?
we lost most of our “third spaces” thanks to them not making money and shutting down or being underfunded or closed if they were publicly owned.
And also shut down by female supremacist activists.
A gym started up last decade in my town, as a men’s only gym. A place for guys to come and exercise without distraction.
It got sued within the year by a woman who tried to join. It went to court. Company ran out of money before the court case closed, went bankrupt and had to close.
The case proceeded to completion, the woman won, and all the women’s groups in the area crowed about their phyrric “victory” over misogyny.
There are three women’s-only gyms in town, six in the greater geographical region. None of these have ever had men demanding to become members, because those men would be nailed to the wall for being misogynists.
This happens eventually to all “men’s spaces” that exist long enough: they are forced to no longer be “men’s spaces”, because being a “man’s space” is misogynistic.
Women’s spaces? Totally fine. Not misandric in the least.
See how “equality” works?
Edit:
Pick any third space where women’s only spaces exist, and you will also find men’s-only spaces that were sued either into nonexistence or into opening their doors for women, which caused it to no longer be a “men’s space”. From boxing clubs to smoking clubs to the f**king Boy Scouts of America, men’s spaces everywhere are being eliminated in the drive to “combat misogyny”.
Meanwhile, the president of the Girl Scouts privately admitted (can’t recall exactly when, but it was either during or shortly after the Boy Scout’s trial) that she would rather shut down the entire org than allow a single boy to join. And she was lauded for that position.
“Rules for thee, but not for me.”
That isn’t “equality” in the least. That’s blatant gender bigotry. And that is what the “black pill” is built upon - actual real-world evidence.
You want the black pill to stop existing? QUIT SHOVELLING THEM COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF AMMUNITION, FFS.
The irony of this reply about this subject…
The lack of awareness is what really gets me on this one. It’s almost unbelievable
He just try to justify female supremacy as a thing. Can’t take him seriously
These third spaces don’t have to be exclusively young men lol. In fact it might be better if they aren’t given the specific topic of people we are talking about in this thread. In general an increase in community locations is a good thing, but it seemed especially so for people in the intel rabbit hole. Somewhere casual they can come out of their shells and meet people in the real world!
I honestly don’t think third spaces on their own are the answer. After all, suppose a city makes a nice park across the street from an incel’s apartment. Maybe they’ll leave their house and go there… but do you really think this socially awkward weirdo is gonna start striking up conversations with other people there? Do you think they are going to engage with others who say hello to them, if others interact with them at all? Yes, a lack of third spaces is a problem, but I don’t think it is the lynchpin. We are also less likely to visit third places when they do exist these days due to digital distractions. People seem to be more insular, less likely to introduce themselves to strangers and less likely to be open to strangers introducing themselves. And significant social anxiety and lack of social skills is seldom overcome simply by having a neutral environment.
What we really need is grassroots social movements dedicated to being friendly to strangers, reducing digital distractions, reaching out to men who feel left behind, and informing parents about the importance of proactively ensuring that their children have healthy social and emotional lives.
Honestly, it’s whether you treat each human life as important or you don’t. I don’t think those people need to be changed, they just need to look at real life instead of running away from it. But I’ll say, working as a clerk in McDonalds doesn’t sound like the greatest achievement of all time.
I honestly don’t think third spaces on their own are the answer.
And I would agree. Men in a group setting of only men will typically behave entirely differently than if you drop even a single woman into their midst. A man who is only among men will open up and behave and accept constructive criticism in ways that he will never do with even a single woman present. The change in behaviour a man exhibits in the presence of a woman is instinctual and unconscious, and is unable to be controlled or even moderated by the vast majority of men out there.
Having male-only spaces is absolutely essential to allowing men to behave as they would without the unconscious/instinctual pressure they would be subject to with a woman present.
Too bad these kinds of places are “misogynistic” in ways that women-only spaces are “not misandric”. The gender bigotry and hypocrisy in this dichotomy is blindingly overwhelming.
I’m not saying you are categorically wrong about the benefits of male-only spaces. But I will say that the attitude and language with which you are approaching the issue is not doing you any favors.
Probably why gaming bros became so popular. A time to hang out with “da boys” because there aren’t any other places you can do that without spending money.
Men don’t need men-only spaces. That only deepens the rift between sexes. It’s absolutely not needed. You can completely respect the difference in sexes and that difference is welcomed, all other matters are bullshit from society. What humanity needs is respectful spaces for all sexes, not division.
These third spaces don’t have to be exclusively young men
Average age of the membership was 46. That doesn’t sound “young” to me.
Some men are just eager to have a communal workout environment that doesn’t have gym thots preening their thirst trap poses all over the place
I feel like that’s more a problem of whatever specific gyms you are going to. Ones I go to have usually have signs up saying no cameras allowing people to just focus on their own workout. Regardless, the point is that if you want to help people overcome their “the world is against me, no woman wants me” mind set of an incel, there should be more spaces that let people interact with others outside of online algorithm controlled or bot account flooded social media platforms. Places to meet and converse with real people of any gender. All of a sudden they will probably realise that most people are actually nice. Most people don’t generally go around trying to make people feel shit or uncomfortable.
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Imagine not wanting any hot women around.
Classic MGTOW vibes here
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Imagine not wanting any hot women around.
Classic MGTOW vibes here
Imagine being the guy whose primary excuse to go to the gym is to “ogle hot women”.
Yeah, you’re a real progressive guy.
The sign of a man with experience is when he’s become sick of women’s shit.
The woman I am married to - which BTW, makes me wholly ineligible for MGTOW status - is one of the few women out there I actually want to spend time with beyond social niceties. I have zero interest in the vast majority of women out there - regardless of “hotness” - because I have come to know how women in general act and react; what their motivations are and how they approach life in general. And that just makes me wholly uninterested in them.
Don’t get me wrong, I will absolutely be polite and civil to women. I have absolutely no problem socializing with them and making them feel appreciated and valued as I would any human being, regardless of gender (or fractional thereof). I just have no interest in them as women.
lol I would like a male version of curves, I get anxiety and think ppl think im looking at them when I zone out, its never been an issue, like they usually just smile at me and I realize it looks like im staring at them looking away, still dont like having anxiety over it. Why is it insane to think men could be more comfortable in a mens only gym like women are at womens only. The gym in my hometown before they added cardio machines was peak.
I think the whole gym influencer stuff thing becoming popular made it worse forsure, wasnt as axious til those vids of woman recording men walking past and posting them online and my gym became a maze of tripods with everyone taking 10 hours to do their sets and check their footage. (The men are the issue here too)
But also gyms have nothing to do with third spaces, ppl use them like that but I think its out of neccesity.
How is wanting to be equal supremacist?
If you want to run a public business, the social contract has always been that you serve the public.
Claiming that men/boys need to be separated because “they can’t control themselves” only enables the incel type behaviors. As well as belittling men. Because as a cis man, I certainly have no issue respecting a woman. Or any issue focusing on other things when they’re around. If men and boys were more familiar with interacting with women, they likely wouldn’t be bitter incels. Unable to understand why no woman wants to be around them. Like, literally.
Holy shit, do you have negative awareness?
Holy shit, do you have negative awareness?
No, I am facts-based.
And if you had any intellectual integrity, you would provide your argument on how my example wasn’t a stellar example of societal anti-male gender bigotry.
But you can’t.
Ah, so yes, you do have negative awareness. Thanks for confirming.
Ah, so yes, you do have negative awareness. Thanks for confirming.
At least I’m not demonstrating the seething levels of gender bigotry that you are, so at least I’m one better than you.
Well, the world isn’t supposed to be fair. Some random person’s actions don’t change the existence of incels. So, why would it matter? Women’s only spaces are out there because society determined so and that’s all there is to it. It isn’t anyone’s fault. Whether you want to do something about it, do it the intelligent way.
FOUND ONE!!!
FOUND ONE!!!
Ah, a classic strategy of the intellectually bankrupt - an ad hominem. attacking the man instead of the argument.
Some of us tend to be obsessed with facts and evidence, and are not easily affected by the public shaming that arises from an intellectually bankrupt thought-terminating response. Try your strategy on someone else.
Facts and evidence are not on your side no matter how much you scream that they are… based on your singular anecdote, no less Classic brainwashed fascist incel vibes there.
Facts and evidence are not on your side
- Boxing clubs and some martial arts clubs that have existed for many decades
- Smoking clubs that have existed for centuries
- The f**king Boy Scouts of America
The evidence is out there for anyone not blinded by fact-free ideology. You just have to look.
You have worth as a human beyond your capacity to produce profit.
This is only true in a vague, wishy-washy metaphysical sense. Fine, whatever, you have intrinsic value. If that warms your cockles, more power to you.
But the extent to which other people value you is entirely dependent on what you can provide to them. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Do you think that in a socialist society, a person who refused to do any work at all - not because they couldn’t, but just because they didn’t feel like it - would be shown general love and acceptance and kindness? No! They would, at best, be tolerated and given the bare necessities to survive - but they wouldnt be celebrated. Do you think primitive tribes love and support the lazy asshole who never contributes and just expects food to be brought to them every day? No, of course not! They kick that motherfucker out when they are dead weight.
And what you “provide” for other people doesn’t have to make money. But it does need to provide some kind of value. Do you have a beautiful smile that brightens peoples’ day? Are you tall enough to reach things on the top shelf, and willing to reach them for short people? Can you make hilarious dolphin sounds at parties? Are you a supportive friend who listens to others’ struggles when they are down? No? You just sit your ass on the couch all day and watch TV and interact with basically no one? Then why the fuck would you expect anyone to value you, when you provide no value to them? This is not a capitalism problem. This is a human solution. Dead weight gets dropped. Period. Always has, always will.
…But old people can retire. As long as they dont fuck up the government
Yes? What’s your point?
I figured it was obvious
I agree. People need to learn to get away from far-fetched fantasy if that doesn’t translate to real value. I know it’s harsh, but everyone needs to deal with reality.
Because a man’s prospects weren’t important in feudal, classical, and ancient societies?
No, they weren’t. Class was much more important. There was no class climbing prospect. You either were born into a having family or you weren’t. Even amongst peasants, men weren’t suppose to “have a career” or a prospect. You inherited whatever your family had.
There was expectations of performance, of course. There was internal competition, but no peasant would ever realistically transform into nobility via merit or otherwise.
Those ignorant of history forget that our current worldviews and values weren’t always universal. The notion of a linear career, of having prospects, to be successful, to grow from a low place and climb the social and financial rings, accumulating wealth enough to retire early then leave a lofty inheritance to children and grandchildren. All that is modern construction that is not present before the 19th century. Furthermore, the expectations that all the other poor people are lazy scumbags, but my poverty is merely a circumstantial setback is a very American exceptialism view.
So you are saying that a father of a girl at any class level in a feudal society cared not about the ability of a mate to provide for his daughter or grandchildren?
That kings and earls didn’t bring wealth and power into matchmaking calculations?
In general, no. It was a business transaction and whoever provided an appropriate dowry would get the girl. No matter their future prospects. The family didn’t care much for whatever happened to the girl afterwards. High class and nobility might’ve care for prestige and title inheritance. But otherwise it didn’t matter. We got so many historical novels with the plot point of a girl marrying a destitute nobleman and being abandoned by her original family that it is sort of a trope in the romantic period. Girl being sold by bankrupt father to save on food with one less mouth to feed was also a trope. You have to remember women weren’t valued much beyond their capacity of bearing children. They were little more than cattle for most western feudal societies.
Capitalism probably doesn’t help, but I don’t think male alienation is really unique to this time or culture. Any time you have social hierarchy the lowest tier ends up eating a lot of shit. Our social hierarchy is very capitalist but you’d easily find the same kind of thing even in hunter gatherer societies. Socialism has plenty of hierarchy baked in as well. Anarchists are about the only ones who actively attempt to “flatten” society.
“Career prospects” in this case means that men want to feel like they’re of use to society. The issue is only tied to capitalism in the sense that the current capitalist environment doesn’t offer many of them meaningful work. I’m not sure what alternative to capitalism you imagine would solve that problem - without also giving men those same career prospects they’re currently lacking. Taking care of and providing for the tribe is what we’re hardcoded to get meaning from.
I’ve seen so many men just suck at doing adult stuff in my life and career. It’s not a problem of men not having the opportunity to show value, it’s more that they expect to have value without providing anything. So if you feel useless, it’s more of a you problem that current media allows you to blame other people for.
Capitalism is causing some of these issues. The core issue is men expecting the world to hand them a sense of value.
Sounds like bootstrap talk to me.
In an ideal world, yes, men and women would be handed a sense of value from society.
I thought about this for a while and nuance is missing from my argument. I was thinking of a specific few men who were basically human garbage. Like talked down to women and treated them like objects, and also sucked ass at their jobs.
It’s fine to think society should give everyone a sense of value. I disagree on the everyone part.
Sometimes it helps to remember that a lot of people are actually hopelessly stupid. And this isn’t like some elitist ivory tower commentary - there is a good percentage of the population which struggles with basic problem solving, knowledge synthesis, critical thought, etc.
“Advanced capitalism” is sometimes literally called a “knowledge economy” and this has really properly fucked people who could have previously earned a fine living doing mindless physical work. And again, this isn’t like some normative statement - for most of human history this equation has been inverted, and intellectual opportunities were scarce. Honestly, part of the problem is probably very specifically that we have hit that inflection point, which is cultivating a new form of alienation for those who are on that lower cognitive tail, who both lack opportunities and are also made to feel inferior for it.
You don’t need someone to create jobs for you, people just need to do useful stuff and it will get attention. As long as work is organized, it doesn’t make sense someone would “create” a job for you. It’s all about History. These neo-aristocrats have a hold on capital, so they decide what to do.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t care about work with this, just that no jobs are “created”.
How bout instead of waiting you arm up and help overthrow the EXTREMELY VIOLENT capitalist system? Go hunt a hedgefunder or private equity broker
Leftist incel vibes
No, freedom-endorsing patriot vibes
Buddy I know a ton of men well placed in their careers and lifestyles that eat themselves up everynight out of loneliness.
SOOOOOOOO……we can all admit now that socioeconomics is real. Cuz I’d hate to think anyone would think this is a new concept and would affect only one group recently and they still sit there and think they are unique to this ’phenomenon’ whilst it’s been an effect for generations already and has gone ignored for about as long. And they’ve had to just ‘deal with it’.
Cuz I’m real sick of seeing this argument like it’s not been around and affecting whole swaths of groups of people for centuries.
You can admit there’s been slaves and it’s affected their families poorly? Let’s start with that. And it’s still happening. And it’s still being brushed under the carpet and there’s still flagrant racism targeting entire communities to ignore their prospects.
For generations.
Cuz that all happened way before incels in the burbs came about.
Who is pretending socioeconomic inequality isn’t real? I agree with what you say, but I’m not sure who here you’re directing your comment at.
Violence is the answer
So how would you imagine it would work out for a POC to open fire like a typical Incel does?
Depends on how good his aim is and choice of venue. Also, honkeys can help out
The only reason Luigi is still alive is he’s white.
Seems like a huge part of the problem is equating “self-worth” to “getting laid”.
Putting your dick in a woman doesn’t make you any more of a man / successful / worth more than anyone else.
Societal expectations need to be rejected. Oh, success is measured by your ability to get married, have a house, and raise your 2.5 children? For a vast majority, NONE OF THAT IS CURRENTLY SUSTAINABLE AND/OR OBTAINABLE. So why bother? Right?
I get it. It ain’t right, but I get it.
Putting your dick in a woman doesn’t make you any more of a man
Yeah, puting a man’s dick in you makes you more of a man.
thank you for your service
It’s simple math, really.
Yeah instant double the amount of man… wanna become a 3x man? Just lmk
It’s literally the most natural thing in the world to equate reproductive effectiveness to worth. All life is “worth” their reproductive effectiveness. So not having sex is very relevant to our entire existence as a species.
As such, our mental faculties put a heavy punishment in the form of mental pain, i.e. “self-worth attached to getting laid”, on this whole thing.
This has very little to do with societal expectations. It’s simple biology. Not getting laid is supposed to be one of the worst things for an organism.
You’re rationally right with what you say, but it’s simply not very relevant. Rationality does not help with our most deeply rooted biological desires. The only thing that helps is getting them fulfilled, i.e. having sex.
Everything you wrote is nonsense. Pointing at a process that often occurs - evolution - and then working backwards to claim that organisms must feel pain when they don’t reproduce is completely antilogical. Evolution may be caused by feelings of pain or suffering when otganisms don’t reproduce, or it could be something completely different. You are putting the effect before the cause.
Trying to do evolutionary psychoanalysis on something as cognitively complex as a human is practically guaranteed to give you wrong conclusions. What’s more, this sort of bullshit is part and parcel of a lot of bioessentialist rhetoric, so if I were you I would definitely consider revaluating a few things.
It’s not though. I’m not working backwards. I’m just not writing a dissertation. It’s possible to observe lack of sex leading to psychological pain in all the different societies throughout all of history we have as humans. It’s incredibly more likely to be caused by our biology than by artificially created societal expectations.
In this case the logic is sound. Evolution doesn’t often occur, it always occurs. And we’re not talking about secondary or tertiary reproductive fitness (ie: humans are efficient at running so they must run, men are physically strong so they must defend), we’re talking about actual reproductive encounters.
Its the entire goal of the of all life on earth. There’s a carrot for anything getting you closer to reproducing and sticks for anything that moves you the wrong direction. Despair and discomfort can be caused by plenty of things, but you don’t have to disentangle the entire human experience to draw the line from a lack of healthy sexual experience to an ideology based on extreme sexual frustration.
Edit: again, down votes with no counter argument. For some reason people agree that abstinence in sex ed is a bad policy but turn around and say sex isn’t part of normal human function. Which is it?
None of my argument is about regressive bioessentialism. There’s no inherent violent masculinity or genetic fitness or any stance about what relationships are “supposed” to look like. Men are just having less sex than women.
24% of men aged 22-34 did not had sex in 2022-2023 vs 13% of women. That’s a much larger cohort to propagate that frustration. You can argue that there are other social factors that make it manifest in this specific toxic ideology (as opposed depression, anxiety and body image issues) but the root cause is the same.
More sex means less frustration about lack of sex, less sex means more. Why jump through hoops to make it about personal failing or some other indirect cause?
It’s not a ‘goal’ there is no purpose or goal to evolution or life…it’s a property of life that it propagates itself but that’s not the goal, reproduction is a function or a property of life. You could also argue the ‘goal’ is survival and there are sticks and carrots poking at making an organism survive, but again it just sounds like you’re misunderstanding how those words are used in academia, you’re doing the same thing with fitness. Fitness in evolution isn’t about running or being strong it’s how well an organism functions in its environment and what makes an organism fit varies from organism to organism and environment to environment.
One of us is misunderstanding for sure.
Fitness is a quantitative representation of individual reproductive success.
You’re conflating metaphysical goals with the literal biological goals of propogation. It has nothing to do with survival, plenty of animals sacrifice themselves after reproducing, either as a food source or lack of evolutionary pressure to stay alive. The human exceptionalism that our awareness puts us above these natural processes is part of the problem.
Yeah you’re the one misunderstanding lol
Must be a reading comprehension issue, I specifically pointed to genetic [biological] fitness in that context. The definition is right there, I’m not wrong. I can reword it if you want: “my argument is explicitly not supporting eugenics”
And still, no actual counter argument. Just responses that might as well be “I don’t like what you’re saying” followed by a short philosophical essay. What humans morally should or shouldn’t do is completely orthogonal to what humans are as biological creatures.
If I’m misunderstanding the dozens of hours of conversations I’ve had with personal friends who professionally research animal+human evolution and behavioral neuroscience, please enlighten me. To summarize my understanding:
- Sex is a widely researched topic, it’s mental health benefits are well established and there are dozens of studies on the physiological benefits in multiple species.
- Neural pathways for sexual behavior have ties to drug addiction and violence.
- Disrupting or over stimulating those pathways has very clear behavioral implications.
All of this points to a very reasonable statement: humans are designed for a non-zero amount sex and large deviations from that can negatively impact social behavior.
People in this thread hallucinate that as an endorsement of regressive public policy or toxic ideology. It’s possible (if you reeeeally really stretch your mind) to want more healthy sexual behavior in society without also supporting sexual enslavement.
Yeah sure, but it’s also one of the most natural things in the world to bite people
Of course it is, if you have rabies
Rabies is natural ;3
I’m asexual. Can’t relate, I guess.
EDIT: Wait, that’s even shittier!! People unable or have difficulty reproducing are worth less to society?? I may be a bit naïve, but I don’t believe that’s a majority of society believes something like that. That’s disgusting.
The comment was about self worth not societal worth. Being asexual shouldn’t matter with that argument because you wouldn’t feel the same sexual drive; your self worth isn’t impacted.
Self-worth can be a result of societal expectations. Your parents badgering you about how you should “go get married and have a family” to show how “successful” you are as a person is very much a thing. It can greatly impact a person.
The only reason a person would feel bad is because society is pushing the narrative that they should feel bad if they aren’t having sex with someone.
Self-worth can be a result of societal expectations.
Sure true, but you can’t ignore that humans have millions of years of evolution that have honed our physiological and social behavior to act a certain way. Just because it’s not rational doesn’t mean you can flip a switch and shrug it off.
For example, peer pressure in teens is more than a normal learned behavior. The need to conform to an in-group that (historically) will be your lifelong community is immense. The pain of exclusion and embarrassment is amplified, closer to actual physical pain, compared to what an adult/child might feel in the same situation.
The only reason a person would feel bad is because
society is pushing the narrative…is because reproduction is a core part of animal evolution. An asexual person saying that core discomfort is invalid is like a person who can’t feel physical pain rolling their eyes at touching a hot stove.
I’m not saying it’s invalid, I’m just saying that I personally don’t believe that it’s the true core of the issue!
It’s way more than just “Men mad because monke brain want sex mad because no sex”.
What is the core of the issue? “Society bad”? There are a lot of comorbid social ills but you can’t reduce everything to your favorites.
Economic frustration will likely manifest as anti immigrant sentiment. Extremist groups provide inclusion as a cure for social isolation. Degrading healthcare systems are fertile ground for anti-vax and pseudo-medicine. Digital echo chambers give a space to amplify every toxic narrative.
Occam’s razor says the guys preaching the fatalistic misogyny gospel are probably experiencing some strong sexual frustration. If they didn’t have that problem they could find something else to be mad about.
No toxic ideology precludes the others, but a racist with a stable marriage isn’t going to be blackpilled. He already knows minorities are the real problem.
Dunno what to tell you, but your second sentence is just wrong. It is mainly “men mad because monke brain want sex”.
You only think it’s not because like you said, you can’t relate to most people since you’re asexual.
-20
They hated them because they told the truth.
It’s not the absolute truth. But it’s most likely the largest part of the explanation.
People like putting blame on “society”, and while societal pressures surely play a part, the reason it’s so nice to mainly blame society is because it creates a problem that has an acceptable solution.
Because what do you say when you say society is mainly to blame here? You’re saying it’s completely fine for many men not to have sex. Just have to fix society making it hard for them to live without sex. If my assumption is correct though, that doesn’t help those men very much. But who does it help? Anyone those men would want to have sex with, because they’re not under “threat” anymore.
Yeah i have sad it before. Many young men belive that to be a good person they must me the manlyest man to have manned in the history of manhood. Anything else and they a moral failure.
And you believe that men are fuck machines, fuck beasts, that to be a man is to fuck. Well thrn a man that is not having sex is failure of a man.
Changing their. Minda is not just a changing some view it is changing their whole world view. It is the sane as convincing the pope to convert to Buddhism. It is way more then facts or some conversations ot converting a whole generation.
Pro tip: getting laid creates more problems than it solves.
Oh, I’m well aware. I’m one of those problems. 😎
Pro tip: don’t say “getting laid”, ever, unless you want to sound misogynistic.
Wealth inequality is the cause of almost every single economic and social issue in existence.
If young men had the money to have agency in their lives they would be living life instead of living with their parents to save money while seeking validation through internet fascists.
If school wasn’t desigend to be a day care service for Capitalists our children would be properly socialized with the different sexes/genders before getting the chance to grow up into incels.
I call it economic infantilization.
Back in 1960 US minimum wage was $1.00/hour and the average US home was $11,000.00 A brand new car was around $2,500.00 A teenager could move out of the house and be self supporting and grade school kid could work hard and pay for a car on their 18th birthday.
It’s hard to feel like an independent adult when you can’t afford anything.
I cry bullshit. Incels aren’t that way because of money. Generation X ate out of dumpsters and did what they could to survive. Not saying younger generations have it easy, but you can be broke and not be a misogynist. From what I understand, sex offenders created the incel movement to normalize their bullshit. Trump and all of those rapists want a world where they can be evil with no consequences. They are working hard towards that end. They need an army of like minded degenerate perverts to achieve this. The algorithms promote this sort of insecure male content on YouTube and other media. Most of those influenders make money trafficking women for sex. This is a new thing. 30 years ago, people were moving away from sexism, and racism. Now, everyone is a protégé of the sociopath billionaires and misogynist tech bro oligarchs. People need to realize this isn’t a natural movement, it’s a synthetic one. Fuck incels! Not literally, of course.
30 years ago, people were moving away from sexism, and racism.
what ? my liberal friend, you’ve been in an echo chamber since birth. welcome to the real world. sun down towns never stopped existing. the glass ceiling never shattered. dropping racist slurs in the company of white friends never went out of fashion.
you are just too poor to know anyone who isn’t performatively liberal
Back 30 years ago, there were spheres outside the old boys club and celebrity racket. Naturally, much was done to destroy that. If people had the option to interact with people who aren’t psychpaths, racists and assholes, they choose that option.
Conservative Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency, and Conservative Ronald Reagan put Sandra O’Connor on the supreme court over more qualified candidates because he wanted a woman on the bench. People were pushing the GOP to make Colin Powell the 1996 and 2000 candidate [he didn’t because his wife was afraid he’d be assassinated]
the Nazis and other fascists used hyper masculinity to appeal to young men’s lack of agency in post WW1 Europe
Fuck incels! Not literally, of course.
Why not? It would cure them 😉
It’s kind of a perfect storm.
Fifty years ago, Alvin Toffler wrote a book called ‘Future Shock.’ He knew that there would be people who couldn’t/wouldn’t adapt themselves to the coming change from the Industrial era to the Digital Age. We’ve got people using the most advanced tech to push the stupidest ideas.
I will check out that book.
Toffler inspired science fiction writer John Brunner. Brunner wrote a book in 1969 and set it in the early 21st Century. He predicted things like middle class folks needing a room mate to make the rent, legalized marijuana, AI, and mass shootings. “Stand On Zanzibar.”
https://bookshop.org/p/books/stand-on-zanzibar-john-brunner/7252770?ean=9781250781222&next=t
Thanks, I looked it up and it’s all you say.
My work here is done.
You’re right, therefore we should ban abortions and gay marriage. /s
Ah, that’s why there are no rich incels!
/s
Okay lets do the litmus test:
What do you think of Israel?
What do you think of the C.E.O.'s who encourage policies that deny warranted health care?
Did the URSS create famines? (I’m leaving this one in here because it’s a hilarious typo and you deserve to understand how silly you look)
You don’t know what URSS is?
Even if I had made a mistake, you just look like a sore loser festering about il lol.
Reading these comments makes understanding why the world is in its current state, extremely easy
Keep preaching and applying that brand of empathy guys, it will surely pay off eventually
The simple fact is no one really cares about the plight of men, and this is obvious when you look at social service funding and especially homeless shelters.
We are in a ‘bare branch’ crisis, and back when this happened in medieval China, whole gangs of angry unmarriable men would form raider bands and just pillage and rape until they were put down by the military. It happened so often that warring states would purposely stage useless battles with massive losses on both sides to keep down the ‘bare branch’ population so they didn’t get to rioting levels.
Maybe the fact that warfare is no longer culling the most desperate, lonely, and impressionable men has let to such a large population of unfocused, angry, lonely, and fundamentally unlikeable males.
It’s mainly because biologically we evolved to have kids and die on a hunt, our evolution pressures just aren’t capable of handling a male population without a certain degree of unnatural casualty.
Sounds like Bullshit, got an sources for that?
While we’re making shit up, did you know the sky is purple? 1 + 1 = 3. Since we don’t need sources, up is down, and you are correct. You are also not an incel, and it’s 25 o clock.
I’m actually impressed at how ridiculous this is. But I’ll bite:
What’s the plight of men?
Is it sexual frustration?
Is the solution ensuring that young men have access to sex, regardless of the means or impact on women?
If that isn’t feasible, are we simply supposed to engage in war to cull off these sex-starved, victimized men who seemingly are incapable of contributing to society in any other way then impregnating women and waging violence?
If so, what is the benefit of living in such a world?
Sexual frustration isn’t the cause but it is comorbid. It isn’t even nearly as much a problem as the crushing loss of self worth that poverty and hopelessness bring. It’s just the only frustration that society allows men to express is sexual because anything else is weakness. It’s that lack of self worth that make such men unappealing.
The cause is there is no reason to work for a future in a world that will barely reward you enough to survive for your hardest, most skilled efforts. Tons of young men are now looking at a bleak future and let’s be realistic, you aren’t going to be a good partner till you are financially stable.
There’s no reason to be a good member of society if the people most greatly rewarded are the ones that abuse the social contract, so a lot of men just don’t see the appeal in being appealing.
Why work on yourself if you can never afford to take a partner out? Or have time to? Why make the effort to court possible rejection when you can just sit around online with all your other lonely, attention starved, hopeless, emotionally suppressed fellows and share things that piss you off
Because being angry feels better than being depressed, and the two can’t really live in the same head.
So they stoke their hate, whatever flavor they have of it, to feel anything other than alone, unwanted, and depressed.
And after a while some clots of hate coagulate into a target or a movement, and then well if the world isn’t going to reward them for their best efforts, why not burn it all the fuck down?
As lemmy is just as biased and irrational as reddit, I fully expect this to get me banned from yet another community.
Men see their value as partners, leaders, and providers and also see little viable paths to be any of those things.
It’s the same issues as other genders to some degree just a lot of society really doesn’t want to listen to a man who’s down and out, because toxic masculinity isn’t just how men act but also how society can expect men to act.
Our legends are soldiers who die for great things. Workers that broke their bodies for the loved ones. Psychopath that gave up their humanity to be something important. All of which imply that just being isn’t important not by itself, and again that how people treat you. Try just being, not “making something of your self”, not “being a generous lover/boyfriend/husband”, just being a person and people honestly treat you like crap.
The dude that fed the ducks where I lived was fucking awesome, but people treated him like he was a fucking bum. The apartments harassed him for taking care of them.
The homeless people I’ve talked to, almost always had the same story, hardworking to take care of a family, something took them from them, drugs, cheating, injury (and thus disability), and then when they “had nothing” they dropped out.
Everyone hears their stories and thinks the same thing though, that they buck up and do something with their lives. Never just for their sake, not because having connections and meaning in their lives would be good for them, but it’s disgusting to others to not be useful.
I’m not the guy you’re responding to but here’s my thoughts on it based off my experience.
Is it sexual frustration?
I’d wager that that’s a big part of the problem for a lot of them. I know it was for me when I was younger. Seeing your peers entering into relationships while you can’t seem to get even a second glance from a woman does a number on you. Especially when you can’t figure out what the problem is. I was fortunate that things turned around for me pretty quickly once I got out of the toxic high school environment and moved onto a different social circle in college that helped me get out of my shell. A lot of dudes aren’t that lucky and just get stuck in that bad mindset where they feel like it’s hopeless which then takes them on to all kinds of nasty places as time goes on.
Is the solution ensuring that young men have access to sex, regardless of the means or impact on women?
No, in my opinion the solution is making mental health services available to help teach them how to deal with whatever it is that’s making it hard for them to find a partner or to cope with it if it’s something that can’t be resolved. Also just having more social opportunities in general to get people offline and meeting and interacting with each other more would be nice. Women certainly aren’t responsible for making sure men are all getting laid as often as they want but sexual frustration/loneliness is a problem a lot of men struggle with coming to terms with and it does fuck up their lives sometimes.
I think that’s a very sanitary answer. My opinion? It’s not some mysterious sociological quandary to unravel why men are sexually frustrated and lonely. These young men have few prospects, a bleak future, and have been raised with exploitative social media that’s slowly eroded their critical thinking skills and empathy towards others. Their failure to achieve a life they’ve been told they’re entitled to all their lives breeds resentment and is being manipulated against women and minorities as a function of social engineering through social media algorithms.
Our next door neighbor is an 80 year old man with 12 grandkids, a nice house and every one of his kids was fully paid for college
He had a high school diploma and was functionally illiterate
He worked as a gas station attentand until they made him manager and he retired with a pension.
NO ONE WILL EVER HAVE THAT AGAIN
Based comment. In our society, men still believe in working 50+ hours a week for peanuts, so we won’t see any of these gangs forming any time soon. Maybe a few active clubs though lol
Aren’t these guys misusing blackpilled? I thought it was specifically for suicide not just going NEET? Which like we should talk about but not through this corporate productivity-washed drivel.
If you also didn’t know
“Not in Education, Employment or Training”, its an acronym for people that don’t go to school, don’t work and are mot looking for work.
Valid point, as well, given that part way through the article she says she’s watching a guy who is working, he’s just doing what would be considered frontline labor and I guess that underemployment is what’s qualifying that guy as a NEET? At least that’s how I understood her take, which, as we’ve said, is not what this acronym is supposed to mean.
Also it’s a backronym from the similar Japanese term which refers to a growing number of people there who have abandoned society and hole themselves up in their room literally never going outside.
Wictionary says it went the other way from NEET to ニート(nīto): https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ニート
You’re probably thinking of 引きこもり(hikikomori): https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/引きこもり#Japanese
I always found “hikikomori” very amusing, because if it was slightly different, and written “hikikomero”, it would literally mean “sweat closet” in Finnish (hiki = sweat, komero =closet) , which is a very apt concept for how lots of hikikomori live.
Sounds like another name for a sauna to me 😅
That is true as well.
But having like a few pc’s and a microgrow going in a small dark room isn’t too far from a sauna
Well, everybody in the manosphere is a toxic idiot/asshole, no matter what particular brand of stupidity they follow. It does feel very similar to religion, though. Some sects might be more violent, but they all follow some made-up shit.
It is semi-religious in that every single head in the “manosphere” is just a leader of a cult of personality.
It may be true of humanity in general, but it’s definitely true of Americans that they just love themselves a good cult.
So where do we meet the devotees in the middle to try to deprogram them?
It won’t work, as long as these right wing grifters designed to draw in incels to their circles. It seems even if they get married somehow it doesn’t solve their issues, as long as the grifters convince them otherwise
“It’s important to remember that it’s not zero-sum. We can care about the well-being of women and girls and also acknowledge that young men are struggling, too. Those don’t have to be at odds.”
Yes, I hate the way that people in media thought they could empower women by creating absolutely moronic and attractive male characters that they could sexually harass. Like, what!? That’s not the way! I think people in general need more support because we’ve sort of nullified the way support networks used to exist.
I think you need to be on a subdued position by society to be considered as “struggling”. Incels accept their condition completely and are not in a vulnerable position when related to society. Unless you call being called out for “mental health” problems as submission.
Being weak doesn’t mean you’re subdued, I bet incel’s existence is profitable to someone. All in all, I don’t wish you a time trying to “care” for these people, I don’t think they would care for you. Unless you call “care” throwing them into some mental institution for something’s sake.
It’s pretty easy to give up trying to build a future for yourself when it has been made abundantly clear to you that your future is not part of the grand plan.
Seems like a great way to ensure that a lot of goodhearted people commit suicide while a lot of assholes get promoted.
And it’s pretty easy to realize you can take a future by scam, violence, and fraud easier than you can by dedicating your life to making other people rich.
Maybe a nation of roving bandit gangs is what we need for a while
“De-radicalization is a noble, worthy line of research,” she said. “But the existing evidence from that field of study suggests that prevention is easier and more effective than trying to pull these people out once they’re already in.” Potential strategies might include fostering better digital and media literacy, i.e., teaching kids to be cognizant of the content they’re consuming online. Exposure time is another key issue.
The education system world-wide is quite bad. Yes, it’s better than nothing, but still, its not good. Media and online literacy are part of the smallest subset of curriculums. As a whole, the education system fails at preparing most people for life. It’s even bad at preparing people for a vocation, its seemingly intended goal.
With better education, traditional mindsets would be much less common. I mention this because in my opinion the major cause of being an involuntary celibate and considering that status a problem, is traditionalism. That attaches self-worth to achievements in life and tightly couples success with partnership and parenthood.
Better education creates more free thinkers and independent individuals who are not easily controlled or swayed by popular narrative. They are not immune to it, nobody is, but giving humans a toolset for critical reasoning can go a long way.
That attaches self-worth to achievements in life and tightly couples success with partnership and parenthood.
I am highly skeptical of a viable alternative here. Self worth is strongly tied to the quality of our social relationships. Our social relationships depend significantly on our achievements. People want to be around other people who are succeeding, because they know that successful people can help them also be successful. Sure, your mom will always love you, hopefully… But who else?
There are countless alternatives and everybody has to find what that means for them. For example I have no real achievements to speak of. Sure, you could look at my paycheck and say “that person successful”. You could look at where I live and say “you’re successful”. You could look at where I vacation and say “you’re successful”. But what does that mean? It might mean something to you because you attribute some kind of value to it, but I don’t. My self-worth is attached to how I treat others (or how I don’t), how I view the world, how I will leave it when I’m gone and the things I tried to do before ending up as fish or worm-chow.
If you feel like you have to live up to some kind of metric of success setup by other people, that’s fine. I hope that makes you happy. It wouldn’t make me happy, but I’m not you.
I don’t feel like I have to live up to some arbitrary metric of success set up by others. I am aware of the fact that others will be interested in knowing me based on my achievements. For example, if I have the achievement “earn enough money to support myself”, other people will want to be around me than would otherwise. These are nice people whose company I enjoy, so I am going to try to keep earning this achievement.
If I can say “I have run a marathon” or “I placed 3rd in my community chess competition”, these things indicate that I have positive attributes which other people will find attractive, like fitness, consistency, intelligence, and an interest in community events. I also want to spend my time with people who have cultivated these traits - so when someone tells me that they once meditated for 24 hours straight, I am impressed and am more interested in knowing them because I intuit that spending time around them will imbue me with some of that potential. Meanwhile, if someone tells me that they spend their free time watching reality tv reruns, I am less interested in knowing them, because I am not interested in becoming more like them.
I’ve had friend groups where nobody knows which job the other person had. Somebody could’ve been a CEO or a cleaner. It didn’t matter. We went to the same concerts together, hung out in bars and the beach together, had deep political discussions and also shot the shit.
At no point did I think “wow, if this person hadn’t told me they went skydiving, I’d never hang out with them”. We happened to have the same sense of humor, watched some of the same shows, did similar activities, and were open to others vision of the world. I can’t even remember their “achievements”, just that they were nice people to be friends with.You may require achievements and some mix of attributes you attach to those achievements in order to hang out with people. That’s fine. Not everybody’s the same.
What a terrible article. NEETS and lie flat movement has almost no overlap with incels.
Ostensibly the whole world has been online for enough time now. Yet everyone continues to demonstrate a remarkable lack of ability to grasp internet cultures.
It makes no sense. Like trying to explain technology to my elderly grandma. Except she knows she’s very old and out of touch. What’s everyone elses excuse. It’s made even worse because everyone else thinks they are digitial culture savvy.
It’s intentional to cause infighting and and to help build the association between neets and incels.
Ars Technica is owned by Conde Nast media conglomerate, which is owned by Advanced Publications, which is owned and controlled by the billionaire Newhouse Family.
That’s why Steve Newhouse wants these types of articles to be written, because it obfuscates truth and pushes division.
Nothing will meaningfully improve until the rich fear for their lives
And what do you base that of? It’s incredibly easy to identify the cause of that overlap…
They overlap because they are all rejects and failures with no prospects.
Since we’ve past growth now there are precious few winners in a zero sum game. Why even try, if you’re not cut to be a liar and a thief?
…I’m honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not - if you’re pointing out a problematic point of view or if you’re attacking the people the article is talking about.
Incel is just a pejorative that makes them get even more blackpilled. Use “emotionally unstable” or even “constitutionally weak”, because if they knew the real issue, they’d be more predisposed to actually fixing themselves so that they can also get laid.
Also, legalize sex work. Just get them laid. Watch the alt right and fascism crash harder than a drunk driver speeding at night.
Sex ain’t gonna fix 'em.
but it will make them less celabete
But it won’t make them better people.
I wouldn’t use humanity as a measuring stick for goodness. Our greatest achievements are more proof to the contrary.
Therapy will though, which is why framing and semantics are important.
Then again, I’m a humanist. I humanize.
Pretty fucked up to think that sex workers should be subjected to a bunch of misogynists.
There’s a disconnect with capitalism and culture. Getting laid isn’t going to fix that.
Sex workers can choose their clients, if they want to take a misogynists money, what the fuck business is it of yours?
See… you’re pretty much aggressively agreeing with me and that’s fucking ridiculous, but also clown shit.
In this thread a bunch of people are suggesting that sex workers would/ should take on clients that have a higher than average probability of hurting them… failing to acknowledge the fact that sex workers may or may not take on a particular client.
The overall sentiment behind the comments like that is putting an obligation on to sex workers, “fuck this guy and save the world.”
Sex workers can say, “no” to a potential client just as well as they can say “yes.”
There’s also several places that already have legal sex workers; yet here we are with this problem.
Also, why do we assume that them having sex with a sex worker will magically fix the serious mental issues they’re facing? Will they suddenly become likeable dudes that women want to be with after that sex worker experience? I’m pretty sure Elon has had sex with a few sex workers. Let’s ask him…
100% agreed. Who’s to say they don’t punch a sex worker in the face and determine that they enjoy the experience?
But at the end of the day, the burden falls onto the sex workers right? Voters and informed citizens shouldn’t have any input…
/s
Maybe sex workers should also keep a gun in a drawer, or better yet hire a bodyguard
A few dead abusive johns will go a long way to cleaning up the scene
Sex work should be subject to protections under the law, including the law, the courts and the healthcare system - rather than subject to persecution, ostracization and having to fend for themselves outside of the law. They’d rather want sex motels decked with panic buttons and security on guard.
Think before you assume you’re actually concerned for someone’s well being, and if you think continued illegality will somehow eradicate sex work - let me remind you that it hasn’t worked thus far. Please reconsider your stance.
Again, just because a bunch of assholes on lemmy think that sex workers should bear the burden of fixing the worlds’ incles; doesn’t mean I need to agree with that idea.
If they want to take that task upon themselves; that’s their call. If they don’t want to take that task on, that’s also their call.
You’re going on about the legality of sex work… different discussion.
No, it was a side argument regarding mental health. Fixing mental health is an everybody issue, especially when people are products of their environment. Having a healthy sex life is part and parcel of improving mental health, on top of exercise, a good diet and actually handling or leaving toxic environments.
You’re not able to see my main point because you want people to suffer, because you think they deserve to suffer, because you want to feel superior and calling me an asshole indirectly at the same time because you’re too much of a pussy to tell me directly.
So the only asshole I see here is you.
Fixing mental health is an everybody issue
No, it’s really not. People with mental health issues have absolutely no fucking business trying to fix some other person’s mental health issues. It’s NOT your place to tell individuals what they should or should not be doing. It’s NOT your place to tell people how to live their lives.
You’re not able to see my main point because you want people to suffer,
What in the hell is wrong with you? You’re the one who wants to force sex workers into fucking incels “to benefit society.”
because you think they deserve to suffer,
LMFAO - show me where that is in anything I’ve said… I’ll be waiting.
because you want to feel superior and calling me an asshole indirectly
If it makes you happier to call you an asshole directly - fine, you’re an asshole and I think you’re dumber than dog shit too.
Tt;dr
Seek therapy instead of trying to get it out of Lemmy comments.
‘don’t call me incel or I’ll meme even harder’
XD
You joke, but this is what actually goes through their heads.
I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what goes through their heads. Been making a damn near academic study of them since stormfront took over 4chan
They’ll remind isolated with weakened impulse control because of ignoring their mental health - which is the problem I was eluding to.
But hey, your cathardic Schadenfreude is all that matters. I wonder what that says about you.
We need a new Judo craze in America.
What happens when you do Judo?
You become confident, and typically very humble. You also get fit AF.
What happens to guys who are confident, humble, and fit AF? They are viewed positively by women.
It’s hard work but very fun. You do need decent health insurance though because it’s easy to get injured. The younger you are when you begin, the easier it is.
You can do BJJ instead but that’s way more expensive and not always so humble.
I took kung fu as a teen and I remember my teachers telling me a story about how the grandmaster essentially beat up a homeless person for asking for money.
I think they were trying to communicate how badass the grandmaster was but it just made him seem like a dick.
Lol, there’s already an obsession with martial arts in America. I don’t think having more people with Joe Rogan brain running around is going to help anyone.
Yeah but they’re not talking about getting ripped and doing steroids and shit, but taking classes from an expert.
And I imagine Joe Rogan didn’t start his career by immediately getting ripped and doing steroids.
I just don’t really think something as simple as taking judo classes is really going to do much to tackle a problem that likely started at the socioeconomic scale.
A large part of conservative propaganda is telling individuals that cleaning their room or working out will solve their problems. When in reality the problems are much more complex and likely systemic in nature.
I just don’t really think something as simple as taking judo classes is really going to do much to tackle a problem that likely started at the socioeconomic scale.
I think a role model of positive masculinity is a good place to start.
think a role model of positive masculinity is a good place to start.
Right, but what about being a judo instructor makes you automatically a positive masculine role model? Steven Seagal instructs aikido an even less aggressive martial arts and he’s a giant piece of shit.
Nothing automatically makes someone a good role model obviously, but going through a program like Judo teaches you a lot of things like being humble.
I’d actually contrast that to supposedly softer martial arts like aikido where you don’t actually train with resistance and therefore don’t get that humbling effect that I was talking about.
I think you can experience some humbling events, but teaching people to be humble isn’t exactly the goal of any of the martial arts. Lots of people just end up learning how to be more effective at violence. I used to do some amateur boxing, and I wouldn’t really claim a lot of the guys I boxed with to be especially humble. Lots of contact sports has a lot of ego involved in it.
Oh yeah confidence by physical appearance, the best kind of confidence… Let’s hook up him in modern society, maybe we should teach him that there exist plastic surgery too…
Confidence and being humble starts when you accept yourself aa you are and you value that. The hyper fixation of the current state of society of creating gym bros is the opposite.
The only thing about judo is the Zen part, that most of the centers don’t teach. Because they are hyper fixated on creating gym bros.
Someone that bases his confidences on what he does is not confidence. Confidence is a self appreciation and it does not depend on what you do.
Society is fucked up if the tip for helping young boy to be confident is to send them all to do martial arts. And I’m especially talking about western martial arts that deviate so much from the original meaning that they have in China or Japan.
Tell me you’ve never been to a judo class without telling me you’ve never been to a judo class.
I’ve been to judo class. All we did was cardio to the limit most of the time and 10 min of practicing movements. It looked like we were training for an ironman.
Maybe your place is different. My experience is that most martial arts train for self defense and not for self body control.
We need a new globbin craze in America!
(I’m not saying this at all because I am the head of my local globblenoobin or because I’m a globbin enthusiast that thinks the solution to everything is everyone should be globbin like me.)
What happens when you do globbin?
You become confident, wise, and typically very humble. Some would say you become among the most humble people you could ever find. You also become lit AF.
What happens to guys who are confident, wise, and lit AF? They are viewed positively by women.
It’s very hard work but very fun. All you require is fifty thousand kopecks and a note from your local beetlebobbin. The younger you start your globbin journey the better, because it’s easier to become the head of a local globblenoobin if you start early!
You can always do glubinobin instead, but it’ll never be as good as the most highest esteemed globbin!!!
You can just say smoke weed.
What happens when you do Judo?
You get brain damage from getting kicked in the head all day and then you become more misogynistic, more violent and generally more right wing as a result. Unless you know of a way to pit these golems against incels and get rid of the problem that way I’m pretty sure we are going to need a more general and far reaching approach than Judo.
there are no kicks or punches in judo though
Oh yeah, I was thinking of taekwondo
I thought school was for basic education, not getting ready for the labor market.
The point of school is to churn out workers. The government didn’t throw money into education because it felt generous.
Ya’ll are forgetting it also doubles as childcare for all the workers you’re employing, but paid for by the state, which is why capital was behind it.
Oh, 100%. But we wouldn’t need childcare if the kids could work the factories. Unfortunately, that needs a minimum level of education.
In a democracy, you should have good schools for the simple reason as to have a people that’s actually able to carry a democracy.
The United States is a flawed democracy, so we have good schools for few and great schools for fewer.
I don’t think I need to learn chemistry and physics to get a job.
They’re worth learning to understand the universe and the history of how that knowledge was derived and/or discovered.
If it helps you get a job, all the better, but they’re worth learning for their own sake.
And that’s how we accidentally get chlorine gas made by the janitors
Sorry to burst your bubble. We’re all just pawns for the capitalists.
My bubble is already completely destroyed.
At least keep walking and become a queen.
I had to check where I had seen your name before. :)
I say burn the board.
:) But don’t hold that in my favor.
Burning the board reverses development. Which decision in the past was wrong that could have led to a better society?
We would make the same mistakes again.
We could create a white pill. When groups of humans become enemies and it’s ok to hate them, then somebody is playing a fascist playbook and it becomes time to offer an alternative to all participants. (Which is just other words for ‘pawns of capitalists’.)
From my current pov, there is no good life, hell not any life on this planet in the future, under capitlism.
The infinite extraction of profit needs to go.
That is what I mean by burn the board. Because the idea that the pawns are only able to run towards the enemy in the hope of becoming a queen (which is the epitome of the carrot on a stick) is just sick.
How to change human nature? People could stop being pawns and redefine the game but they don’t do it. Here, NEETS stop playing the game and they are immediately shunned by society. People can’t stand to see in others what they have to suppress in themselves.
The end of capitalism would require some benevolent people to be in control or a majority of society that doesn’t fall for manipulations.
The best that I can imagine is that those who don’t like capitalism create their own island, kind of like the situation in brave new world. Fortunately I am not that clever so I hope that others find a better solution.
How to change human nature?
you mean the neoliberalist take of social darwinism. thats debunked. people are born good and empathetic. even evolution has not happened as capitalists like to picture it. not the strongest individuum has prevailed but the most kooperative group.
People could stop being pawns and redefine the game but they don’t do it.
The next neoliberalist take of individualizing systemic problems. people have zero real influence on their lives. there are also very few countries that even have a semblance of democracy. even in germany, people are so manipulated that they obviously decide against their own self interest.
The best that I can imagine is that those who don’t like capitalism create their own island, kind of like the situation in brave new world.
That is currently being done. Many places are building horizontal, base democratic communities. It also has been done many times over, but capitalist countries have destroyed a lot of them. Sometimes killing the people involved.
The western countries are in a very precarious situation in terms of democracy. Capitalism is ultimately a fascist system (absolutist hierarchies, eviction of the weak, darwinism) and will always lead to fascism if unrestrained.
Some ideas of people are either solely worker owned companies, full blown democratic socialism or base democracy with federation. All promising concepts.
That hasn’t been the case… Ever I think. We’re still trapped in the industrial revolution’s education system - create laborers - but with a lot of extraneous bullshit tacked on in an attempt to mesh it’s obsolescence with modernity and labor-saving tech. It’s always been about controlling the workers.
Originally, school was for the nobility and (fledgling) bourgeois, so they could run their spreadsheets, wage wars, and impress people with trivia, everyone else’s education came from family tradition, neighbours (farmers talking farming stuff), or an education in the trades. Want to study geometry? At some point, the best option was to become a mason. And they would swear you to secrecy.
Universal education is a brainchild of Martin Luther, he wanted everyone to be able to read so that all could read the Bible.
Yeah but everything changed when the
Fire Nation attackedIndustrial Revolution began.
Hmm maybe at one point but that point is long gone
