Man, having the second shroom spawn in the comments sure is a comedic blessing
We all knew it was gonna happen as well
Lotta lib instances getting uppity on this one
Every vote blue no matter who lib I have met has no principles at all and gladly votes for outright reactionaries if they claim to align with Dems, like, at all. And per this meme, punch left far harder than they do any “moderate” Republican.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Flip the table, run yourself, or go vote for somebody who isn’t a spoiler. Yeah, that means shit choice A or shit choice B. One will enslave and kill at a whim, the other is just useless. Which are you more willing to work with?
In the global south sure, but this does not make sense for the empire where both candidates are imperialist scum, this is not about perfectionism.
One will enslave and kill at a whim, the other is just useless.
Bullshit, the dems have as much blood on their hands as the reps. You know where this actually applies? Brazil tomorrow, where one candidate is a liberal that at least does social programs and the other one is a fucking fascist that wants to just give our country away to the US for free while he destroys our labor laws, destroys retirement pay, and destroys our national payment system so US credit card holders can start profiting from us again.
This thinking is why the US will continue down their fascist path.
It’s hard because your heart is in the right place. We want the same things.
What you’re actually railing against is two-party politics. But unless you have some realistic, workable way around that, what you are doing is splitting the Blue vote and accepting Trumpers as the winner.
Your point isn’t worth the extra death youre causing with this naïve approach.
Fascism is imperialism turned inward when capitalism is in decay.
The US will continue down the fascist path because of structural and material forces, not because of how people think.
The only other viable outcome that avoids fascism is civil war.
You have no idea what youre talking about. Its so pitiful. Your understanding of politics is literally only based on social media. You’ve never read any thing related to politics. Sad part is, most Americans are even worse than you
This is a socialist and anarchist instance. Almost nobody here is simply against “two party politics”. The common understanding is that bourgeois electoralism is largely farcical because all bourgeois party activity, and really the wider “political” class system, is beholden to capital, not the voters. The two party politics and disenfranchisement angle is just bourgeois electoralism becoming less competent as a form of social control through the illusion of choice. The illusion itself is simply less tenable than when they seem to actually fight over what their strategists seem “marginal” issues. Bourgeois electoralism is cannibalizing itself bit by bit, failing to keep up the game, because it isn’t fully satisfying the needs of capital.
The US has been fascistic for nearly its entire existence. Built on genocide, settler colonialism, chattel slavery, war, regional domination, then world domination via imperialism. Its modem “descent” into fascism is more about giving up the aforementioned bourgeois electoral game than a dramatic material change in what it does internally or abroad. And it’s not adopting naked fascistic rhetoric because folks here recognize the blood on Democratic party operatives’ hands, including literal genocide. In fact, trying to ignore and downplay that as a failing is, itself, actually fascistic.
The workable way around this situation, and it is a difficult struggle, is to organize, educate, and build power outside the bourgeois electoral system. Bourgeois electoralism is, again, a powerful form of social control that defines politics as only elections and then gives you basically no power to do anything with them. In contrast, nearly all major liberatory changes are the direct result of organized mass movements, including in the US. Slavery was ended by war and untenable opposing economic forces. The civil rights movement was riots and direct action, not “just take it to the voting booth” (imagine that). The education is key, Americans know nothing except a tepid miseducation in history, politics, and even the societies they live in. But they won’t just come over and say, “educate me please”: organizations spend their time figuring out how to engage and grow through it, including getting people into educational sessions of various forms.
“Splitting the blue vote” for what. Who gives a shit about blue. The ones who fomented, started, ran cover for genocide in Palestine? I’m supposed to be concerned when they get fewer votes because they’re awful? You have politics completely inverted. Rather than figuring out how you can support awful people and awful things, determine how to work against them.
Liberals telling socialists that their “heart is in the right place” is definitely a new sentence. A hilarious one.
what you are doing is splitting the Blue vote and accepting Trumpers as the winner.
No I am not, what I’m doing is urging for the USian population to finally see the light and stop voting for two genocide candidates, and instead build power themselves so a revolution can happen. That in itself would make the world 10000x better as we from the global south wouldn’t need to keep worrying about the USian boot, or their big stick, in our neck all the time.
Your point isn’t worth the extra death youre causing with this naïve approach.
What extra death? The Democrats could turn abortion into law any time, but they never did, do you know what their inaction does? It leads poor woman to illegal clinics to get an abortion, which results in a high percentage of them either getting sick or dying. The Democrats could have not sent any money to Israel to further escalate their genocide campaign on the Palestinians to begin with, but they kept sending money, it’s almost like we here are right and both are just imperialist parties, who would have guessed??
You don’t need me to remind you that Biden said that if there wasn’t an Israel, the USA would have to invent an Israel, just like you don’t need me to remind you that Obama drone striked a kid named Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, and that he started a whole ass war when he made the US invade Libya. This shit is so blatant even NATOpedia can’t deny it.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
We want the same things.
You sure about that?
The other will enslave and kill you but more politely
asking for politicians to say they oppose genocide is being a perfectionist
Fr, you’re just showing there is no line they can’t cross
Don’t let the barest fucking minimum possible be the enemy of unconscionable evil that’s intentionally making everything worse!
Nobody has ever asked for “perfect” literally ever, nor have the Democrats ever fielded someone who could even by a stretch be called “good”. Hell, people aren’t even asking you to be good either, they’re just begging you to stop shooting yourself in the dick over and over, to stop working hand in hand with the literal demons of the GOP, and to stop actively triangulating towards being a more milquetoast and bloodless version of the GOP hogs.
I want you to die, you fucking [slurs]
Wow, look how uncouth that man is! I would never call you slurs. Now, would you do me a favor and go over there where I can’t see you and stop breathing? I can’t believe people think these are the same!Non-voting is an active way of steering the policy of a party. By your own electoral lib logic, if enough people stopped voting to the democrats for being genocidal ghouls, this may force them to drop their genocidal ghoul ways at least to the point where they’re worth voting. By enabling them election after election completely unpunished and requesting absolute fealty to them (vote blue no matter who), you’re giving them permission to be as genocidally ghoulish as they want.
Libs actually know that the dems will never stop being genocidal ghouls.
And everyone who does vote actually controls things for you since, you know, you didn’t participate and dunked on the libs online instead.
Brilliant plan.
Now try and think of an actual reply to what I wrote, which was not about dunking on the libs but about explaining you the purely electoral logic of conditioning your vote on a premise in order to correct deviations in the party you purportedly support.
By its very definition, “vote blue NO MATTER WHO” is explicitly about letting go of control, and commending yourself to anything the democrats will do. If you argue otherwise that democrat voters are in control of policy, you’re saying that democrat voters are enforcing the policy of genocide. Are you in control and enforcing genocide? Or are you out of control of democrat policy?
Punishing a party withholding your vote and explaining your reasons IS a method of participation in US “democracy”
The problem is the Dems will never learn you aren’t voting because of that stance. They will just think you’re lazy or uninformed and that’s why you don’t vote. It creates a nasty feedback loop where candidates will completely abandon mostly black working-class neighborhoods because the voting rate is so low. So they end up pandering to the “cul de sac” people who have all of these bigoted brainworms… and now you have anti-trans Dems.
They don’t know you exist. The way they target voters is they have internal “support” and “turnout” scores. There’s a cross-section of those scores the biggest campaigns build their targets from, so non-voters and 100% voters get completely excluded. Also people outside of 50-80 (out of 100) on the support score.
So you’re both kinda right. You should not vote for shitty dems, and most dems are shitty. But you should still vote for the local ballot measures, or write in Mao for races where everyone sucks, and “undervote” by not voting every race. That way more savvy strategists see that you care about voting but don’t approve of the candidates. IDK it all sucks.
Or to put your argument into a single sentence, “Not participating is a way of participating.”
Sure, pal. You all keep thinking that and get madder and madder when it keeps working exactly as well as it has til now.
You all keep thinking that and get madder and madder when it keeps working exactly as well as it has til now.
My god, take a look in a mirror and say that again. Where has voting for Democrats gotten you? Nowhere but deeper in towards fascism. We’re the ones sadly shaking our heads at all the vOtE-bLuE-nO-mAtTeR-wHo! libs who keep mistakenly thinking that Democrats will save us from fascism or do anything but aid and abet the conservatives. You all are out there completely wasting your energy (exactly as the ruling class wants you to) promoting an abjectly rigged system. We’re the ones trying to get dizzy nincompoops like you to do something that actually stands a chance of benefitting the people (like real organizing) rather than continuing to vote for blue fascists and being nothing but useful bufoons for the ruling class.
The epitome of
and 
There was another lib a couple weeks ago who came in here with a very similar cluster of writhing brainworms as the ones you’re infested with. I wrote a pretty detailed couple of comments to them explaining the situation and clarifying the principled leftist position. They were relatively well-meaning, so I took the time to go through it with them. I’m not sure if you are well-meaning or just a troll, but if you actually have any interest in maturing your political understanding, you might consider giving that thread a read.
“If I change the wording and the meaning of your argument, it sounds stupid”. Incredible way of defending your point of view. You could just engage with my argument instead of arguing against a misconstrued version of it, my wording is very clear.
Please illuminate us in your logic: are democrat voters either in control and supporting genocide, or is “let’s vote every time for the lesser evil” giving up political control? Which of the two?
Okay, so then when are you running with all of your flawless solutions?
I never said I loved the Democrats, just that they are unfortunately the only potentially viable alternative who has any chance of actually taking power.
Voting is the only control voters have, and you are actively choosing to entirely cede that control in the name of a protest. Throwing paint on a truck does more than actively not voting, and I consider both to be pretty foolish forms of protest.
Actual protest involves action. Doing nothing is, by definition, inaction and therefore entirely useless. Therefore, your “protest” is utterly useless in the face of this system which will install whoever it damn well chooses - especially when you hold your “moral high ground” and do nothing.
when are you running with all of your flawless solutions?
So you WILL vote for a third party not supporting genocide? I thought I was supposed to just vote, not run? Didn’t voters hold the power?
they are unfortunately the only potentially viable alternative
I didn’t deny that at any point. My point was never to tell you you should vote for someone else in particular, just that, by openly stating “you can enact arbitrarily evil policy as long as it’s slightly less evil than the republicans”, you’re giving carte blanche to genocide. The democrat party NEEDS to win elections to secure funding and continue existing, if you LOUDLY condition your vote (as I said from the beginning, not simply by staying home on election day, but by protesting and showing that there’s a sizeable amount of voters explicitly saying the democrats won’t be elected unless they explicitly de platform genocide), by the logic of your electoral system, they will be forced to concede more than if you simply state “I will vote for you no matter what you do”.
Voting is the only control voters have
Incredibly false. In my homeland of Spain, the ongoing protests against the cost of housing have achieved the forwarding of the elections, and forced the major unions to carry out a general strike. Limiting the idea of democracy to “dropping a paper in a box once every four years” is incredibly antidemocratic. I’m a militant in a socialist organization, and I have a lot more power through that than I do through my vote.
Actual protest involves action
Yes, and action doesn’t equate voting. Unionizing, participating in protests, engaging in mutual aid, or educating your nearby ones are much more powerful forms of action than casting one vote every four years, especially if this vote-casting is done via unconditional surrender.
Doing nothing is, by definition, inaction
Do you genuinely believe that ONLY voting is doing something? That voicing your opinion loudly and proudly and gathering majorities who follow your claims and protest is not a valid form of democratic participation?
What do you think will improve under the democrats?
Answer the fucking question you morally repulsive fucking coward
Swear to christ you probably think you’re better than a Trump supporter. Especially on an intellectual level you are their inferior. They will eventually engage even if only to sneer and admit what they are with a “u mad?” or something. You are less virtuous and moral than they are. And they are smarter than you.
Will you vote for this guy if he’s in your state?
to be more specific it’s not silent nonparticipation. it’s making a demand and when they don’t meet the demand they don’t get your vote.
that’s part of the story of 2024, and we’ll see if they learn anything from it. considering the transphobia and dsa-punching i don’t think they did.
You didn’t address the argument in good faith but your strawman is also right.
Removed by mod
Maybe respond to the argument with a real argument instead of being defensive and in this case gross
Ukw, I’m sick of you guys. I’ll make sure everyone I know also hears about why voting dems is useless. And I’ll make sure even strangers will think twice before voting dems.
Vote for the party that actually will do things you want for your country. If dems satisfy that requirement, I dont give a fuck about your opinion. Genocidal maniacs shouldn’t be in power at all.
Shit take.
Massive uh… Massive “L” take right here.
You directly supported and endorsed the perpetrator of a genocide. During that genocide. With full knowledge.
But they aren’t good?
Cool, so don’t vote and let Republicans keep doing what they’re doing. Because these are the options we actually have right now.
Or vote democrat and let the republicans keep doing what they’re doing.
I’m going to vote for Democrats that don’t contribute to or incite genocide. They’re good enough.
But if a Democrat supports Israel, or regurgitates anti-trans shit, or wants to increase the lethality of our military, or wants to increase police funding, or wants to increase “security on our border”, or any of that genocidal shit? They don’t get my vote, because if I vote for them it will increase their power in the Democratic Party.
The Democrats you vote for will change the Democratic Party to be more like them. Make sure to only elect good ones.
Cool. Hope republicans make y’all whine even more lmao
I dont vote for people that fund genocides cause I dont want to be complicit in genocide.
If you and people like you spent a tenth of this energy trying to talk Kamala into abandoning Israel and the genocide of Palestinians we wouldn’t be in this mess. Do you think convincing millions to overlook genocide is easier, or convincing just the one person to stop enabling and partnering with genocide?
I personally think convincing one person is easier than millions, but that’s just me.
If you abandon all sense of personal morality (and I know you actually don’t - you rationalize the horrors), even this is not strategic if you stop listening to the cynical party talking points and think about more than just the next election. If you always vote for the “lesser evil”, they will never cater to you or any principles you promote. They already don’t because you have no discipline to organize and withhold votes on specific states grounds, as a bloc. You are manipulated but not adapted to.
So over a period of one or two election cycles, all those “beyond the pale” worse evils are your new “lesser evils”, and this is in an idealized version of the political world. In reality, you already accepted and lesser-eviled genocide and can fall no further. All because you have been manipulated by bourgeois talking points and are fighting the people who do organize for actual liberation with a consistent commitment.
